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JohnG
01-16-2015, 06:36 PM
http://forums.segwaychat.org//t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTDSEp8kdmqZtFr4I94Fs-5RAMBRFRFpboGVW5zQKOWdIZRLE5qVy45Kx5FyD1lTB6FryOa-RU
Wired (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&fd=R&ct2=us&usg=AFQjCNFdwrQXClLoVtZs9PP5he5UfjMnpQ&clid=c3a7d30bb8a4878e06b80cf16b898331&cid=52778713693551&ei=WJK5VPCKDOPR8wGFw4DwCA&url=http://www.wired.com/2015/01/well-didnt-work-segway-technological-marvel-bad-doesnt-make-sense/)
<img alt="" height="1" width="1">
Well, That Didn't Work: The Segway Is a Technological Marvel. Too Bad It Doesn ... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&fd=R&ct2=us&usg=AFQjCNFdwrQXClLoVtZs9PP5he5UfjMnpQ&clid=c3a7d30bb8a4878e06b80cf16b898331&cid=52778713693551&ei=WJK5VPCKDOPR8wGFw4DwCA&url=http://www.wired.com/2015/01/well-didnt-work-segway-technological-marvel-bad-doesnt-make-sense/)
Wired
We were all supposed to be riding Segways by now. The company was supposed to be rolling in cash, the scooter's inventor a modern day Jay Gatsby (minus the bootlegging and murder). It didn't happen: Today, the Segway is a punch line, a way for mall ...

and more &raquo; (http://news.google.com/news/more?ncl=dGaL8yNwkUPdpOM&authuser=0&ned=us)


Read the full article... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&fd=R&ct2=us&usg=AFQjCNFdwrQXClLoVtZs9PP5he5UfjMnpQ&clid=c3a7d30bb8a4878e06b80cf16b898331&cid=52778713693551&ei=WJK5VPCKDOPR8wGFw4DwCA&url=http://www.wired.com/2015/01/well-didnt-work-segway-technological-marvel-bad-doesnt-make-sense/)

Source: Google News




noalox
01-19-2015, 05:39 PM
Sigh. More drivel masquerading as a serious report. Then followed by a slew of people talking out of their derriere's with the majority clearly having never seen, let alone ridden, a Segway.

Valiant effort, Lily. Telling that no one responded to your informed post. Nothing more needed to be read.

Lily Kerns
01-19-2015, 09:43 PM
Sigh. More drivel masquerading as a serious report. Then followed by a slew of people talking out of their derriere's with the majority clearly having never seen, let alone ridden, a Segway.

Valiant effort, Lily. Telling that no one responded to your informed post. Nothing more needed to be read.

There are none so blind as those who do not want to see...

dudeman1961
01-19-2015, 10:58 PM
Well said!

JohnM
01-21-2015, 02:52 AM
Nothing new here. WIRED has been re-writing the same Segway article over and over since 2003 (http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/11.03/segway.html).

Civicsman
01-21-2015, 04:24 PM
“The world just wasn’t ready for it.”

nope. thats just kidding yourself... the world just didnt want it. ...


and.....there's the bottom line. One can argue about relative advantages and disadvantages of Segway two-wheeled, self-balancing transportation, but after almost 14 years, the marketplace has spoken clearly.

Segs are niche machines, useful for some, but not for most. They ARE fun, but those willing to spend $5k+ for a self-balancing toy are in a distinct minority. It is now abundantly clear that they will not significantly displace other forms of transport for most people, even in Europe or Asia, and they are far too expensive. Segway aficionados need to come to grips with the situation. Promote the machines if you wish, but recognize and understand the reality.

I'll also point out that it is the world-wide market which has spoken with such clarity, not just the U.S.A.

PeteInLongBeach
01-22-2015, 11:11 PM
They ARE fun, but those willing to spend $5k+ for a self-balancing toy are in a distinct minority.

I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly did not buy a Segway as a toy or novelty. It has been extremely useful to me as part of an overall transportation strategy, which includes walking, kickscooter, folding bike, segway, bus, train, car, RV, and air travel. I could have spent an equivalent price for a motor scooter, and few would have questioned it or assumed it was merely a toy. But a motor scooter's particular characteristics and functionality do not fit well in my transporation scheme, and it is not as useful (or safe) for me as other devices in the hierarchy. The segway fits very well to fill the gaps and co-exist among several of the other devices.

It's all about using the most appropriate tool(s) for each travel scenario.

Lily Kerns
01-23-2015, 08:36 AM
I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly did not buy a Segway as a toy or novelty. It has been extremely useful to me as part of an overall transportation strategy, which includes walking, kickscooter, folding bike, segway, bus, train, car, RV, and air travel. I could have spent an equivalent price for a motor scooter, and few would have questioned it or assumed it was merely a toy. But a motor scooter's particular characteristics and functionality do not fit well in my transporation scheme, and it is not as useful (or safe) for me as other devices in the hierarchy. The segway fits very well to fill the gaps and co-exist among several of the other devices.

It's all about using the most appropriate tool(s) for each travel scenario.

This toy or tool question is apparently part of the reason why the 2010 version of the ADA lumped Segways in with ATVs, etc. as OPDMDs. (Other power driven mobility devices). They can be and are also used for other purposes. The guide for small businesses goes on to add, however, that there will be very few instances where a business can legitimately deny a Segway user the right to use it.
This can be difficult for someone trying to enforce existing rules and having no way of determining whether the user is disabled or not. The law gives them the right to ask for proof, but if you don't have it they have to take your word for it unless they have visible evidence to the contrary. Things are changing! I no longer carry a sign on my seg and it has been a while since I have been challenged....

Gihgehls
01-23-2015, 07:48 PM
I definitely bought my Segways because they were fun toys/novelties. When they worked, I used one of them every day, for fun.

KSagal
01-23-2015, 09:08 PM
I definitely bought my Segways because they were fun toys/novelties. When they worked, I used one of them every day, for fun.

I wish I had a higher purpose, but I have to admit that a huge consideration of my buying my segways was also the fun/novelty aspect. I never commuted, nor ever used my segway in a manner that could not be duplicated by walking or using another device. I simply liked and chose to use my segway.

Also, my segways have experienced very little down time, less than any conveyance I can think of, per mile. With tires and chains on bikes, I have to say that my segways have treated me better. (I also treat them better, in that I store them inside the cellar instead of garage or shed, which may tend to help their lack of environmental degradation.)

If I had to categorize it, I would have to say that single largest replacement use of my segway was tedious short car trips for errands or the like. I never stopped using my bicycle, nor walking, nor driving. I just added another option to my conveyance choices, and for me it fell into the category of fun transportation, mostly recreational.

Civicsman
01-24-2015, 01:57 PM
I'm certainly not arguing that Segs aren't useful for the mobility-challenged.

I put those who bought one for fun (instead of a utilitarian purpose) into a different category.

There are far too few of either group. In fact, the marketplace says that customers for ALL uses of the Seg total something less than 10K per year.

Segs are (were) technically advanced, but at this point, 14 year after introduction, it's past time to give up on the pipe dream that Segs will conquer the world.

noalox
01-24-2015, 11:14 PM
I use Segway's for my career so my perspective is a bit different. I love the machine and believe that there is SO much room for growth.

But the point I would like to make is that if the Segway is judged just for what it contributes to "transportation" then the most worthless machine ever made is a jet ski. What use is there for a jet ski except for fun? And cost? Can be nearly double the cost of a Segway.

Now I know that the jet ski was never advertised as the machine that will transform inner cities and revolutionize personal transportation. But it is a niche machine that shows no sign of going away, even when viewed from a cost/function/seasonality viewpoint.

I believe the same for the Segway. It is fun. There is a market for fun. And it can (and is) being used as a transportation device. All great reasons to have faith in a future for Segway.

Now corporate is another matter!! :mad:

airdale
01-25-2015, 11:38 AM
After all these years you think price would of been cut by half?
I do believe that the changing of the world was intended for 3rd world or very busy cities....

Being disabled, and not allowed to drive, when the county cut my bus route out.....
That made for a very frustrating situation for me.....My closest store is a Walmart and its 2 miles away, and about 500 feet lower that were I live.....That's a hell of a walk up hill with groceries...!

Its been a long time that I was as happy as when the local police called me back and said I could ride on sidewalk!( bikes are not).....

So my Seg, ended up really helping me out of a bad situation! I do hope to move in the coming year....Just not sure about the cash flow, but for now I can get to Dr.s, stores, and a cup of coffee....

I got some of my life back that I lost over 8 years ago....That's my opinion...

Civicsman
01-25-2015, 01:24 PM
But the point I would like to make is that if the Segway is judged just for what it contributes to "transportation" then the most worthless machine ever made is a jet ski. What use is there for a jet ski except for fun? And cost? Can be nearly double the cost of a Segway.

Jet skis are great for rescuing swimmers in trouble (only as an example), but the point is that there are far too few people who think the Seg is fun enough to justify buying one, on the basis of "fun" alone. Far more people are willing to spend much more for a jet ski, which tells you how much fun most people think can be had on a Seg, relatively speaking. (Not to mention that jet skis are considered "cool", and Segs are not).

Gosh, folks, stop arguing about the reality that has been staring you in the face for years. Two-wheeled self-balancing devices are not going to be very popular, at least any time in the foreseeable future. To be sure, Segs have found a few niches, and they (and the self-balancing competitors) are filling it. However, Seg sales hit a plateau years ago, and the "new" Seg is essentially the I2/X2, without much innovation, after 8 years. You and I may love Segs, but the overwhelming vote of potential buyers on this planet is "no thanks".

This is not a negative viewpoint, it is only pragmatic.

noalox
01-25-2015, 05:29 PM
I'm not willing to accept that as yet. I introduce people to Segway's on a daily basis (during season of course) and the vast majority of the time people go on and on about how much fun they are.

We have to remember that the Segway was a totally new technology and was introduced too many years ago for the initial advertising to be of any worth. I'm not an advertising expert but I would guess that if a product has not been in the publics eye (through mass advertising) for the past 6 months it doesn't exist!

Of the "newbies" that I train for tours a lot of them have only seen Segway's on Paul Blart Mall Cop or at the airport. More people are showing up with personal experience but the vast majority are first time riders. After 12+ years of existence that is terrible!

I had high hopes that the new owners would have had a plan to advertise but that is not true. I had high hopes that there would be some redesign that would give Steve Jobs his "**** in his pants" moment but that was not true either. Maybe faster charging batteries would be in the plan. Sigh.

If the Segway is going down it is because of these reasons not because the public has stated it doesn't want it. Far too few people know of it's existence (personally that is) for the case to be made otherwise.

dgbint
01-25-2015, 07:22 PM
... I never stopped using my bicycle, nor walking, nor driving. I just added another option to my conveyance choices ....

Well said Karl.
If only Segway marketing adopted that approach !

Michael
Sunny Australia

KSagal
01-26-2015, 01:44 AM
It is not pragmatic, it is defeatist. And that is okay, if it fits your opinion.

1. Segway still exists. Does Rad-to-go? How about the Q scooter? They might, but I have not heard of them for years. Other copies come and go, but a new company that still exists is still worth considering.

2. Jet skis do have a cool factor that segways do not have. Much of this is personal opinion, marketing, and other, non objective factors. The press likes to trash segways as uncool, or too geeky. Especially the techno press. I do not know why, perhaps I am too close to the topic.

I suspect that a major factor is that they are so safe. People see cool in the same vane as dangerous. Going 100 mph in a 55 mph zone is seen as cool, going 45 mph in the same place is seen as lame. 45 is a lot less dangerous.

All of the anti segway rules and local laws I have seen were based on either a single incident of irresponsible behavior from one operator, or speculation and ignorance of segways. Those same local politicians know of accidents and fatalities of bicyclists and jet skiers, and do not prohibit them, because of the difference of perceived reaction from the public. None of them want to be the guy who outlaws the cool stuff.

Interestingly, there was also a defeatist attitude in the press about the Republican party, and conservatives in general. I recall reading just a couple years ago how the Republican party was going away, and would not exist shortly. Yet, this last election saw one of the largest congressional shifts ever.

Just because the press is against something is not a reason to give up on it. Segway still exists because it sells enough machines to continue to exist. And because of that, we still get to choose if we want to believe in their mission or not.

I choose not to believe in something because the press likes it or not, or because a poster here likes it or not, or because a poster somewhere else likes it or not. I choose to make my own choices based on actual data I have before me, at least as often as I can.

So, if you believe that Segways will not have a place in the future, good for you. I do not believe that. I believe that they have progressed much slower than many believed, and the press reported. But I bought two new ones, in 2003 and in 2006. I still have the i2, and still like it.

And I still do not believe much of what I read, in the press and on the internet. But I continue to follow the news, and read much on the internet. That is simply the world we live in.

At this point, many of my neighbors and friends that know I have a segway are quick to point out that they rode one on their last vacation. That simply did not happen years ago. I believe that as more people get exposed to them, and often that is thru vacation tours, that they will not be the scary thing that people are automatically afraid of, but instead will eventually find a way into our common, every day lives.

Kind of like how they were mentioned in the latest ADA documents, not highlighted, but mentioned. Kind of like how the FAA is acknowledging their existence, and they are not automatically exempted, or at least are more in the grey area than they were.

I believe that Segways are here to stay. Not to topple the infrastructure of everything we know about transportation, but rather to add color to our lives, and choices to our conveyances...

Civicsman
01-26-2015, 10:33 AM
I am aware that some people like to define words to mean what they want them to mean, as compared to what the rest of the world accepts as the definition. To clarify, here are both definitions:

"Defeatist" - a way of thinking in which a person expects to lose or fail

"Pragmatic" - dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations

Stated slightly differently, a defeatist expects to lose, no matter what. A pragmatist accepts facts and proceeds with a logical viewpoint, based on facts and other practical considerations. After 14 years of limp and flat sales, the facts are obvious. One might like the facts to be different. One might hope the facts will be different (see "optimist"), but facts are persistent.

I'm not arguing about whether "coolness" is subjective. It surely is. "Coolness" is defined collectively, not by the thinking of one person, or even a few. It's clear that for the young potential buyers that Segway would really like to have, Segs are not nearly cool enough.

The point is that the overall numbers are in, and continue to come in every year. Not enough people want to plunk down $5k+ for a Seg to play with. (This is apart from mobility, tours, and other utilitarian applications, which are not filling INC coffers to overflowing, either).

So, if you believe that Segways will not have a place in the future, good for you.
I did not say, or even imply that. I wrote, "To be sure, Segs have found a few niches, and they (and the self-balancing competitors) are filling it. However, Seg sales hit a plateau years ago, and the "new" Seg is essentially the I2/X2, without much innovation, after 8 years. You and I may love Segs, but the overwhelming vote of potential buyers on this planet is "no thanks"."

JohnM
01-26-2015, 12:50 PM
I'm not an advertising expert but I would guess that if a product has not been in the publics eye (through mass advertising) for the past 6 months it doesn't exist!

Guess again. 20 million bottles were sold in 2012. Advertising budget - $0. Hot stuff can sell itself. Cool stuff, not so much.
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Love you guys.

KSagal
01-26-2015, 08:27 PM
Guess again. 20 million bottles were sold in 2012. Advertising budget - $0. Hot stuff can sell itself. Cool stuff, not so much.
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Love you guys.

How did you happen to know that product sold 20 million bottles in 2012, and that it has a 0 dollar advertising buget? I am curious.

airdale
01-26-2015, 09:02 PM
Guess again. 20 million bottles were sold in 2012. Advertising budget - $0. Hot stuff can sell itself. Cool stuff, not so much.
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Love you guys.

Go away troll.....Post something that is helpful, or just fade away...

You know what mom said....If you have nothing good to say...then just STFU!

Gihgehls
01-26-2015, 10:31 PM
Go away troll.....Post something that is helpful, or just fade away...

You know what mom said....If you have nothing good to say...then just STFU!

Take a lesson from your mom, then. JohnM has contributed nothing but truth to this forum. Sometimes the truth hurts, sometimes it is irrelevant. It is mostly ok to post irrelevant things on this forum, but it isn't ok to personally attack another member.

KSagal
01-26-2015, 11:24 PM
Take a lesson from your mom, then. JohnM has contributed nothing but truth to this forum. Sometimes the truth hurts, sometimes it is irrelevant. It is mostly ok to post irrelevant things on this forum, but it isn't ok to personally attack another member.

I find it entertaining how you are so defensive of some people's right to post irrelevant things and so annoyed when others do it.

If one person does it and gets admonished, then any who do it should.

And he is a troll, (and that is a pragmatic conclusion) and you cannot say that he has contributed 'nothing but truth' as that is simply not substantiated. You may feel that way, but feeling that way does not make it true. It is also a bit too absolute for my taste.

A case in point. That bottle of hot sauce. How do you know his statements are 'nothing but truth'? I asked him, but he has not responded. I wonder how he came upon those statistics.

Gihgehls
01-27-2015, 01:10 AM
In the glorious age of information we all live in today, I don't think it is reasonable to demand someone else to type "sriracha advertising" into Google, even if they are making claims. Sure, it would be nice if John posted more context, but let's not pretend the facts aren't literally a button push away from all who would want them.

JohnM
01-27-2015, 03:16 AM
How did you happen to know that product sold 20 million bottles in 2012, and that it has a 0 dollar advertising buget? I am curious.


http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-21/sriracha-hot-sauce-catches-fire-with-only-one-rooster

The truth will set you free.

Or not. (http://www.ted.com/talks/kathryn_schulz_on_being_wrong)

KSagal
01-27-2015, 12:04 PM
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-21/sriracha-hot-sauce-catches-fire-with-only-one-rooster

The truth will set you free.

Or not. (http://www.ted.com/talks/kathryn_schulz_on_being_wrong)

Thank you for your response.

Nice article, and surely good enough to warrant a posting here, and using it for support. Not on topic, but okay.

Now, let's first consider that none of us have ever read a puff piece in the media that was not embellished or slanted to look one way or another. I am sure that is not so here...

Also, let's consider that this sauce is a piece of a growing market that exists without this product. The same article says that this sauce has a small minority stake in a very healthy and growing market. I agree that while I have never bought or tasted this sauce, sales are good, and surely many people like it.

But this manufacturer did not invent something the world had not seen before. This sauce is not new technology that did not exist before its introduction.

Also, this sauce costs $4. (according to the article). It is pretty easy to take a chance, and try ownership of a condiment at an investment of $4. Less of a major plunge, less of a required commitment of lifestyle change.

So, nice sauce. Also, nice business story. And fairly well on point for showing an example of something popular, and well received. I just don't know if you can fairly compare this to the Segway.

Gihgehls
01-27-2015, 01:36 PM
It wasn't supposed to be a comparison, it was supposed to be a contrasting* example to what nolax said. (http://forums.segwaychat.org/showthread.php?p=236670#post236670) Let's try to flex our memory muscles a little more, or just click to previous pages in the thread.

*We still remember compare and contrast from grade school, right?

airdale
01-27-2015, 01:42 PM
Thank you for your response..

So, nice sauce. Also, nice business story. And fairly well on point for showing an example of something popular, and well received. I just don't know if you can fairly compare this to the Segway.

If your looking for any comparisons it should be of technology and look at the original costs...

Things that come to mind.... Sony Walkman? Apple Ipod... and the Ipad....think those were cheap?

My only grip is cost never went down, so they pigeon holed there self's...

And I know a TROLL when I read one!....

PeteInLongBeach
01-28-2015, 07:43 PM
If I had to categorize it, I would have to say that single largest replacement use of my segway was tedious short car trips for errands or the like. I never stopped using my bicycle, nor walking, nor driving. I just added another option to my conveyance choices, and for me it fell into the category of fun transportation, mostly recreational.

I use mine to replace short car trips and long walks. It is often faster than getting out to the car, getting the car out of the garage, driving to destination, finding parking, walk from parking, etc. It is always faster than walking.

I continue to walk, kick-scoot, bike, drive, etc., and I use each mode when / where it seems most effective. The closest alternative to the Segway is my Brompton folding bike, which I use when transport/storage space is an issue, or extended time without charge facilities is an issue. Otherwise, the Segway is more convenient, less fiddly, and more nimble and versatile. Living in a downtown environment, and frequently traveling by RV, it usually ends up being the chosen "last mile" transport. So, basically I'm using it as Mr. Kamen had envisioned, and that concept still seems sound to me.

Civicsman
01-30-2015, 01:05 PM
A case in point. That bottle of hot sauce. How do you know his statements are 'nothing but truth'? I asked him, but he has not responded. I wonder how he came upon those statistics.

Perhaps he has learned to do an internet search. In 2015, this is a capability that everyone who has internet access should try to learn to do.

I typed "sriracha sales" into a common search engine. The very first hit gave me "20 million bottles last year". There were other hits with similar results. Now, it is possible that the information is incorrect, but if one knows how to actually USE the internet, then the truth of most matters will become clear.

Just imagine if other people would do this, instead of posting dozens of words, and wasting everyone's time, by posing questions which have patently obvious answers.

KSagal
01-30-2015, 09:47 PM
Perhaps he has learned to do an internet search. In 2015, this is a capability that everyone who has internet access should try to learn to do.

I typed "sriracha sales" into a common search engine. The very first hit gave me "20 million bottles last year". There were other hits with similar results. Now, it is possible that the information is incorrect, but if one knows how to actually USE the internet, then the truth of most matters will become clear.

Just imagine if other people would do this, instead of posting dozens of words, and wasting everyone's time, by posing questions which have patently obvious answers.

You can ask a search engine if Atlantis exists, or if we never landed on the moon, and you will get answers. Lots of them, some sounding reasonable.

Getting some hits that all refer to one puff piece in a media that has no standards does not the truth make.

Popular group knowledge has never been unmanipulated, and surely not less so since the internet. Just because lots of people believe a thing to be so, does not make it so.

And for the record, when a troll posts something, and does not support it, that does not make it my responsibility to ferret out the truth or lie of a posting. He posted, I asked how he knew, he chose to ignore.

Just because you have chosen to believe that I am a bad guy, and constantly look for reasons to support your OPINION, does not mean that a segway antagonist, who loves to post negative postings on a segway ENTHUSIASTs forum is right, or beyond reproach.

You very well may be right, and I may be a bad guy. But that has no bearing on if John M has posted 'nothing but truth' here. Your absolute statement is still unsupported. You can continue your boat trip on de nile, but a man who bashes segways and Dean Kamen on a segway enthusiast site is still a troll.

Civicsman
01-30-2015, 10:39 PM
You can ask a search engine if Atlantis exists, or if we never landed on the moon, and you will get answers. Lots of them, some sounding reasonable.

I agree. The internet is one of the best research resources on the planet, but anyone with an internet connection can post any idiotic thing that pops into their head, and somewhere, people will read it and believe it.

Without critical thinking skills to make sense of it, all information is useless.

JohnM
01-31-2015, 12:41 AM
Wow. I'm glad that I used an innocuous hot sauce to make my point about mass market advertising. Imagine the sh!tstorm I would have caused if I had used a bicycle analogy. ;)


Sometimes you guys are your own worst enemy.

JW Hunter
01-31-2015, 11:31 AM
Sometimes this place reminds reminds me of sitting around a campfire in the sixties and the inevitable " WOW man...think about this!"

KSagal
01-31-2015, 11:36 AM
Wow. I'm glad that I used an innocuous hot sauce to make my point about mass market advertising. Imagine the sh!tstorm I would have caused if I had used a bicycle analogy. ;)


Sometimes you guys are your own worst enemy.

You are right. There are surely some here who are emotional and spirited in their debate. (and I am among them)

But just because you know where there are a bunch of hornets, does not give a person leave to wade in and start whacking the nest with a stick.

I will agree that there are many here who see the segway's relationship with the world thru rose colored glasses, but so what? This is a segway enthusiast website, and that is the proper place for them.

Some have a more realistic, dare I say pragmatic view, and there is some friction among the enthusiasts. Of course, the majority are somewhere in the middle.

But just like squabbling siblings, the debates are all in the segway enthusiast family. When an outside troll comes sniffing around, whacking at what they see, most of us are clear minded enough to see the objective is to cause a problem, and not to support the enthusiast mission.

Some do not see. Some do not want to look. So be it.