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Old 03-11-2012, 11:45 AM   #11
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I don't know that anyone is suggesting a knee-jerk reaction. True, there are likely hundreds of other companies that also treat their employees in a similar manner, but is this an argument to take no action?

Foxconn's issues have been identified, and it is a manufacturer for the "most valuable company on the planet with a $500B+ market cap; $100B in cash reserves..." Having literally made billions of dollars on the backs of those workers, I personally expect a big customer to mandate ethical treatment for the employees at its supplier companies. Besides being humane, it also begins to level the commercial playing field between countries.

Every major company I have been a supplier for has an "Ethics Policy" that would prevent one of their suppliers from doing business with companies that use child labor and/or otherwise abuse their employees. Apple has one too. Here's a quote from an January 2012 article in the NY Times that may illuminate the situation:

"“We’ve known about labor abuses in some factories for four years, and they’re still going on,” said one former Apple executive who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity because of confidentiality agreements. “Why? Because the system works for us. Suppliers would change everything tomorrow if Apple told them they didn’t have another choice.” "

One US Occupational Health and Safety adviser stated, "what’s morally repugnant in one country is accepted business practices in another, and companies take advantage of that.” Apple is certainly not the only company doing so, but I think it's worthwhile to keep reality in mind any time someone puts Apple on a pedestal.

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Old 03-12-2012, 03:37 AM   #12
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I don't know that anyone is suggesting a knee-jerk reaction. True, there are likely hundreds of other companies that also treat their employees in a similar manner, but is this an argument to take no action?
I don't know that anyone in this forum is suggesting a knee-jerk reaction. Despite all our various differences, we tend to be independent thinkers, so it wouldn't surprise me if none here were to have that reaction.

(And that's a complement to all of you.)

But I have seen that reaction, a lot.

And as I said, it's not an argument to take no action. Actually, "no action" is an action choice (whether it is to "continue buying Apple products" or "continue not buying Apple products").

And whatever action you choose, will be on the basis of insufficient data.

My suspicion is that the community in which Foxconn operates is better with Apple as a customer than without. Apple is high-visibility, and the desire to keep them as a customer I suspect puts pressure on them to do well, and gives them economic resources to do better by their employees than without that income. And the employees that would be let go without Apple as a customer, I suspect, face a bleak outlook.

My guess is we're near the optimum -- embarrass Apple into putting pressure on Foxconn, but not pushing Apple into severing relations.

But the flip side of that is there's another village out there that's NOT getting Apple as a customer, and the benefits that would flow from that.

Holding Apple executives themselves responsible for not being responsible is a different matter. If I were in their shoes, knowing of abuses, I would be trying to find the best way to improve the situation.

The knee-jerk response of demanding Apple sever relations with Foxconn, however, may well do more harm than good. And if your nameless exec is correct, Apple would then lose any opportunity to improve things.

But I may be preaching to a very bored choir....
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Old 03-12-2012, 09:23 AM   #13
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I do feel this is a very real topic, and a very real issue, but do not know if we know enough about it to truly understand what is the current situation there. We are talking about a different culture there, and most news comes from news sources that are not always that good or anxious to report the truth as much as the spectacular.

Further, I wonder just how much of a factor this is for the buying public of Apple. Regardless of crediting their engineering, or their marketing, or any other combination of these and other factors, Apple holds a very dedicated fan and consumer base, that is more likely than many other consumer bases to overlook much that may be going on.

In the long run, right or wrong, this is not the biggest issue at Apple, and it is not a new one either.

I am not a fan of Apple nor a consumer of theirs. My wife has an ipod I think, for music. (If I have the right title). I generally buy the computers, and happen to be a PC guy. I do have friends however who are great fans of Apple products, and I respect their opinions, and from all I see and hear, their engineering is very good. My personal assessment goes to the features I want, for the price I want to pay.

Of course, many of my Apple consuming friends try to tell me it is not about the money, but it is about the features they like. Maybe it is, and I will sample their wares eventually. I have no bias against going that direction, when the time is right. At this point, I am comfortable knowing how to get the features I want for the price I want, and that equation has not yet brought me to Apple.

I find this thread interesting to read, but I wonder how many people reading, (not so much those writing) will be moved to act differently. I have had many a conversation with friends and associates about one retailer or another. When I mention that I regularly drive past one retailer in favor of another who treats me better, has better customer service, or some other non directly price related service, I am often met with skepticism. It seems that many people value convenience of location, and relative appearance of good pricing over service, pleasantries, and other factors in their purchasing.
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Old 03-13-2012, 12:06 AM   #14
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It was my understanding that Apple has having a third party investigate and verify the conditions at Foxxcon factories were suitable. It is also my understanding that Foxxcon factories were never a suicide hotspot, and that compared to other similar factories in China, Foxxcon's conditions were the best. It is all a matter of perspective I suppose.
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Old 03-13-2012, 12:29 AM   #15
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Yes, Apple has a third-party investigating, now, but the issue was reported as early as two years ago. I have also read statements that says the Foxconn suicide Foxconn rate may not be any higher than the rest of China. However, when a company spends money to string up anti-suicide "catch nets" near their buildings, one has to wonder what is going on. Surely having the nets helped keep the numbers down, right? Or maybe it's due to the "no suicide" pledge that Foxconn employees now have to sign. There is enough new information dated in early 2012 to suggest there is still an ongoing problem.

Understand that I'm not saying that Foxconn is unique, nor that numerous other international electronics companies are taking advantage of the situation. I'm just saying that Apple may be very successful, but they have some warts.
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:41 AM   #16
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In a story apparently prompted by my posts (ha!), Newsweek printed the following "Robber Barons of Silicon Valley" story:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...on-valley.html

It's a good article, pointing out the historical parallels between some of today's companies with many aspects of their businesses not regulated, and robber barons of the past. The article does not single out Apple. It has plenty to say about others as well, including even those who put "Do no Evil" in their corporate mission statements. However, this is pertinent to the Apple discussion:

"Take Apple’s manufacturing practices in China. By systematically outsourcing the assembly of iPhones and other gadgets to contract manufacturers like China’s Foxconn, Apple has shaved its overall cost of production and plumped profit margins for shareholders. That’s neither unique nor necessarily evil. It’s a practice regularly adopted by toymakers, chemical producers, and food packagers, not to mention most of the rest of the consumer-electronics industry. But establishing an arm’s-length commercial relationship does not absolve a company from moral responsibility for the way its chosen partners treat workers.

Nike taught American business leaders this lesson more than a decade ago when its use of far-flung suppliers employing children in sweatshops became a public-relations debacle. Although Apple has a code of conduct for suppliers, audits them, and has published summaries of the results for several years, the company resisted more-direct scrutiny until recently. Labor issues at Foxconn’s sprawling 230,000-worker complex in Shenzhen have attracted bad press for some time. It was not until that negative publicity spread from the relative obscurity of Mike Daisey’s off-Broadway monologue, The Agony and Ecstasy of Steve Jobs, to the front page of The New York Times and then to broadcast networks that Apple took more-meaningful action, allowing the Fair Labor Association to conduct special audits of its suppliers’ factories in China."
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:26 AM   #17
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It always sad to see that the chinese people live and work in poor conditions, no matter for who they are producing products/parts.

I would love to see them all have good salaries and a max working time of 40 hours a week. And I believe that many others would like to see that happen as well, but not that many would accept the consequences of it I guess. Prices of all the products would go through the roof.

But how about going back to the original topic, you know Segway PT sightings in AMsterdam, I would love to see more videos and photos
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:44 AM   #18
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It always sad to see that the chinese people live and work in poor conditions, no matter for who they are producing products/parts.

I would love to see them all have good salaries and a max working time of 40 hours a week. And I believe that many others would like to see that happen as well, but not that many would accept the consequences of it I guess. Prices of all the products would go through the roof.

But how about going back to the original topic, you know Segway PT sightings in AMsterdam, I would love to see more videos and photos
Actually, I suspect what would happen over time is that there would be a tremendous market for cheap labor to supply the Chinese market, thus pulling up the fortunes in such places as Burundi, Congo, Liberia, Zimbabwe, Eritrea, Somalia, Central African Republic, Niger, Malawi, and even Afghanistan -- where the annual incomes range from $300/yr in Burundi to $900/yr in Afghanistan.

The problem is, between education and infrastructure, they can't really fill that need yet. But with that big a market driving it, I bet people will start to figure out how to connect the dots.
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:17 AM   #19
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Actually, I suspect what would happen over time is that there would be a tremendous market for cheap labor to supply the Chinese market, thus pulling up the fortunes in such places as Burundi, Congo, Liberia, Zimbabwe, Eritrea, Somalia, Central African Republic, Niger, Malawi, and even Afghanistan -- where the annual incomes range from $300/yr in Burundi to $900/yr in Afghanistan.

The problem is, between education and infrastructure, they can't really fill that need yet. But with that big a market driving it, I bet people will start to figure out how to connect the dots.
The problem is even bigger! We're having a chinese student, really a smart guy, doing a intership. He explained that where he lives, he would make 400 euro/month, if he wants to earn more, he would have to move to a bigger city.

But there is a problem, he and his girlfriend are both only-child, which means that they will have to take care of their parents, since there is nothing for elderly people arranged in China. They can't bring the parents to europe, since they can't speak the language and they also don't want to move to another city, because they like the home town (social contacts, quiet, etc).

So, although the younger generation can become smart enough for good jobs, the rest of the culture/system prevents them from making something out of their lives.

It's sadly not something we can change/fix easily :-(
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Old 03-16-2012, 12:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
But how about going back to the original topic, you know Segway PT sightings in Amsterdam, I would love to see more videos and photos
Although the title of the thread is indeed, PT sightings in Amsterdam, the video attached is about the opening of the Apple Store, which includes about 1.7 seconds of the backside of some guy on an I2. Even the text of the original post was more about the Apple store than Segs.

There is nothing keeping posters from putting up other Amsterdam sightings, but once the title topic was exhausted (post #2) this thread progressed like pretty much every other thread on the forum.
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