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Old 06-02-2015, 04:48 PM   #31
Civicsman
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Lots of ranting, lots of lies, lots of saying what I believe when simply reading what I said would tell the truth, and even dis-owning what he said about swimming with sharks.

And still never answering my continual question, if he believes that Lily is more likely to be injured or discomforted by squatting in a ditch or being struck by lightening on any particular day, in any particular thunderstorm, or on any particular segway outing.

The fact that ranting with mis-information is the choice, instead of simply answering the simple question says all that needs to be said.
Frankly, I am amazed at having to argue with an adult about taking actions to help prevent death or injury due to lightning. In addition, I am aware that everything I write below is clearly available from my multiple prior posts. I hold no illusions that re-writing them again (in different form, with smaller words), will have any effect whatsoever on fixed beliefs.

However:

1. I believe any person standing (or riding a Seg) in an open place in a lightning storm is much more likely to be struck by lightning. Standing in an open place during a lightning storm is precisely like swimming with hungry sharks, with respect to useless statistics which do not take a specific high risk situation into account. Both circumstances are high risk, and are not represented by a general statistical mean. Thankfully, most humans are more capable of understanding the realities of the situation, than were the electrocuted cows. What would you do, KSAGAL? Caught in the open in a lightning storm, do you go with cow-thinking, ignore the storm, and glide on, fearlessly?

2. I believe any person who takes the "lighting safety position" in a ditch during a lightning storm will be less likely to be struck by lightning than standing upright in the open, and if struck, will be more likely to survive with lesser injuries. There is wide agreement from severe storm scientists about this. What would you do, KSAGAL?

3. I believe squatting in a ditch in a lightning storm is not comfortable for anyone. Similarly, I believe the interrupting one's afternoon swim because of hungry sharks is "inconvenient". However, the reality of the danger of the specific situation may dictate having to endure some discomfort and inconvenience.

4. I believe that discomfort (or inconvenience) is hugely trumped by strong threat of death or injury. Disagree, KSAGAL?

5. Consequently, if caught in the open in a lightning storm, I strongly believe in the relative safety of the "lightning safety position" to help protect me from death or serious injury. In that situation, temporary discomfort doesn't even play a small part in my decision. What would you do, KSAGAL?

Others may feel differently than I do. Feel free to stand on a hill or ride your Seg though a storm, while lightning is crackling overhead. The ageless ignominy of a future Darwin Award awaits.

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Old 06-02-2015, 09:05 PM   #32
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You still have not answered my question, but you add your own. How narcissistic.

I know you are afraid to answer the simple question, "Do you think that Lily is more likely to hurt herself in a lightening storm gliding home from church, between buildings and trees, by squatting in ditch or by being struck by lightening?" Still, I would like you to marshal up the courage and fortitude to answer it honestly.

As for yours...

1. I agree, standing on a segway in a local lightening storm is more likely to get you struck than squatting in a ditch, however if doing it while gliding between buildings and trees, then the advantage is nullified.

So, in the situation presented by the OP, I would glide home.

2. I agree that the squatting position is safer than the standing upright in the scenario offered, but again, that is only a construct of yours, never presented by the OP.

Also, I would not suggest it is safer to do anything that cannot be done by the recipient of my advice to do it. That is disrespectful. I would not suggest to a person in a wheelchair they should run away up the stairs to escape a flood, while I might suggest it to an able bodied person. To the wheelchaired person, I might suggest another escape route, or a way to avoid the flood.

So, while it might be safer to squat than stand in this situation, I might not suggest it to this person, nor myself, and rather take the suggestion that you quoted that a safer position in a thunder storm is not safe, and that she, me and others should head for shelter.

3. Squatting in the ditch may not be comfortable for most, but is actually much worse for some than others. Much like suggesting a person take a 75 pound weight up a flight of stairs. Not comfortable for most, but actually dangerous to try for others.

The reference to swimming with sharks is just too stupid to respond to.

4. You have still never answered my question about this particular poster relative to your squatting suggestion. I cannot answer this question until we quantify the actual threats involved.

I believe that this particular poster, and myself as well, would definitely would be more likely to hurt them self by trying to squat in a ditch than simply glide home. Since the squatting will definitely hurt some of us, and the likelihood of actually being struck by lightening even if standing upright on the suggested glide home, is still pretty low. Considering the definate hurt from one squatting, and the unlikely far more dangerous injury (still only 10% die from a stike) I might still suggest they glide home. I know I would.

5. What would I do? I would find it unlikely to be there in the first place, as I do not frequent wide open plains, in thunder storms or not. If I were actually caught in a wide open space, in the middle of a locally hitting lightening storm, and had no escape, I would strive to lower my profile, and would not do this by placing my feet very far apart. But, again, as I have said over and over, the advice may be relatively good, but that does not make it germane to the poster.

Again, you are introducing straw men to this thread, over and over. No one other than you has suggested gliding over hills or even just standing around in a lightening storm. Going home is not the same as standing around or cresting hills for the sake of it.

Much like swimming with feed frenzied sharks has no place in this conversation, as it is another of your straw men, that was created in your own mind, simply as an example of what not to do. Then you intimated, without any validity, that I said or felt it was okay to do.

It is time for you to up your game, or loose me as a sparring partner.
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Old 06-03-2015, 03:55 AM   #33
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Ok guys! I seem to have started this. May I please end it?
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Old 06-03-2015, 10:04 AM   #34
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I can't speak for Lily. I am not familiar with her disabilities, her gliding destinations and habits, etc. i simply answered her questions.

I assumed she was perfectly capable of making her own decisions and expressing her own views. I was not aware that she needed KSAGAL to defend her, nor that she had authorized KSAGAL to speak on her behalf. My apologies, Lily.

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It is time to up your game, or loose me as a sparring partner.
I never considered you as a sparring partner.. That suggests a type of relationship that does not exist. I'd hate to "loose" such a skilled and erudite debater, but i've already tried my best. Unfortunately, I've had zero success in cutting through the fog. I'm sure we will all be sorry to read no more of your insights on lightning, statistcs, and personal safety, but I am certain that we will all be greatly entertained by your equally well informed and logically precise posts on every other topic.

Have a nice day.
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Old 06-03-2015, 07:24 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Lily Kerns View Post
Ok guys! I seem to have started this. May I please end it?
Yes you may. I feel you simply asked a question, and started nothing, but as you requested it to end, this shall be my last posting on this thread.

I hope you did get some useful data.

I wish all sunny skies, and the wind at your backs...
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Old 06-04-2015, 10:31 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Civicsman View Post
I can't speak for Lily. I am not familiar with her disabilities, her gliding destinations and habits, etc. i simply answered her questions.
As a person with a disability I would counsel Lily to stay out of ditches...the probability of drowning in even small amounts of water vastly exceeds that of being struck by lightning.

Seek shelter under some suitable structure (not under a tree) or indoors as quickly as possible...common sense really.
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Old 06-04-2015, 12:43 PM   #37
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Just for the record! In the situation that sparked all this, My route home from church is on sidewalks and street. There are tall trees most of the way and buildings (not tall, this is a very small town.). There is a ditch along part of the way which fills quickly with water, but is shallow enough that you'd have to work to drown in it. There are homes where I know the folks along a good share of the way which is just about two blocks. Oh, yes, I can get off my seg to hunker in the ditch. Getting up again can be done...but not gracefully!

I think I'll just head for home in most cases..or wait til the storm blows over. Or just use common sense! Thanks to all!
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Old 06-04-2015, 01:29 PM   #38
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Seek shelter under some suitable structure (not under a tree) or indoors as quickly as possible...common sense really.
Severe storm professionals say that many structures that keep rain off your head don't do much to protect you from lightning. Homes and businesses have plumbing and wiring that will tend to provide a path for lightning, thus helping to protect occupants. (Which is why you stay off the land line phone and out of the shower during a lightning storm). Being outside of a home or business, such as on a porch, doesn't provide the same protection. If you're outside such a building, depending on where the lightning strikes, it may go through you to get to the pipes and wiring. Hard top automobiles are pretty good shelters too.

However, if lightning strikes a picnic shelter (just as an example of a minimal structure), the lightning finds a path from the top of the structure to the earth beneath, sometimes following the structure, and sometimes arcing, and a human standing under it could still be in that path. Not to mention that such a building won't have much positive impact on the effects of a nearby ground strike.

Again, folks, the advice I posted was for the situation where one is caught in the open with no recourse for better shelter. Maybe the person is too far from any shelter. Maybe the storm is coming up too fast to outrun. The professional advice is that when the "flash-to-thunder" time is 25 seconds or less, you are at potential risk. Of course, that risk increases as the storm gets closer.

The "lightning safety position" is the final, desperate, survival technique for the situation where you have no other good options. It doesn't require being in a ditch (or ravine or whatever). Being lower than the surrounding area just makes it less likely you'll get struck. If you CAN get to a good shelter before you're within range of the storm, then by all means do so. If you think you shouldn't go into a ditch for personal reasons, then don't. However, continuing to glide through a storm is asking for it.

Your life. Your decision. Know the facts.

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Old 06-04-2015, 03:04 PM   #39
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Yes...of course...I recommend caves

look... water is a good conductor of electricity people on or in or near water are among those most at risk during thunderstorms....stay out of ditches...

here's some good advice...travel with a tall companion....preferably someone you're not fond of....and if you can get them to wear a tin foil head gear of some sort all the better!
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Old 06-04-2015, 04:26 PM   #40
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Yes...of course...I recommend caves

look... water is a good conductor of electricity people on or in or near water are among those most at risk during thunderstorms....stay out of ditches...

here's some good advice...travel with a tall companion....preferably someone you're not fond of....and if you can get them to wear a tin foil head gear of some sort all the better!
LOL. Good advice!
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