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Old 07-22-2009, 02:45 PM   #11
Bob.Kerns
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While I would agree it is best not to reopen wounds -- censorship is not a suture -- not even a bandaid.

Better to openly acknowledge that mistakes were made, wounds inflicted, that pain remains -- and move on.
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Obviously, we can't have infinite voltage, or the universe would tear itself to shreds, and we wouldn't be discussing Segways.
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Old 07-22-2009, 11:41 PM   #12
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Those in control here don't feel it is in their interest to help that site, or to direct people here to the competition.
With regards to Segway forums, what does "competition" mean? How, exactly is SC "competing" against any other forum? Is SC winning?

I can understand those whose feelings were hurt not wanting to call attention to the "other" site, but if the intention of SC is really to encourage the use and enjoyment of Segs, blocking the name of other sites that do the same seems petty.

Are the offended parties one of the two current moderators (it's clear that it is not Florin), or is it Frank hisself? If the issue is with some old moderators, now long gone, there's no reason for the policy to continue. If the issue is with one of the current moderators, then I have to ask whether it is within the scope of any moderator to take such action.

If the issue is with site owner Frank Tropea, then I think he can do what he wants. He pays the freight. However, it would be appropriate if the written rules of SC would this reflect this written rule so that it does not seem arbitrary.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:31 AM   #13
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With regards to Segway forums, what does "competition" mean? How, exactly is SC "competing" against any other forum? Is SC winning?

I can understand those whose feelings were hurt not wanting to call attention to the "other" site, but if the intention of SC is really to encourage the use and enjoyment of Segs, blocking the name of other sites that do the same seems petty.

Are the offended parties one of the two current moderators (it's clear that it is not Florin), or is it Frank hisself? If the issue is with some old moderators, now long gone, there's no reason for the policy to continue. If the issue is with one of the current moderators, then I have to ask whether it is within the scope of any moderator to take such action.

If the issue is with site owner Frank Tropea, then I think he can do what he wants. He pays the freight. However, it would be appropriate if the written rules of SC would this reflect this written rule so that it does not seem arbitrary.
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Old 07-23-2009, 02:22 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Civicsman View Post
With regards to Segway forums, what does "competition" mean? How, exactly is SC "competing" against any other forum? Is SC winning?

I can understand those whose feelings were hurt not wanting to call attention to the "other" site, but if the intention of SC is really to encourage the use and enjoyment of Segs, blocking the name of other sites that do the same seems petty.
Yet they also pick and choose. Segway.com is another site that encourages the use and enjoyment of segs via their Segway Social pages, but you don't see URLS that go to there being blocked.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:34 PM   #15
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First off, this site is not a democracy, or even a republic, so a vote is a sham, as it has no value except what an individual assigns it. There is no binding requirement to comply with the result, and even if one were to be held, the moderators have the ability to manipulate it just as they have the ability to manipulate everything else on this site...

Next, we are talking about emotional issues. Everyone deals with them differently, and many do not air them publicly, but instead present a different public persona. (How many people on the internet are not whom they seem to be?)

Also, asking people to move on, if you are not the one who feels slighted is all fine and dandy, but may not be appropriate. There are some insults that I will not move on beyond, and others that I will... I do not pretend to guess that I know all that happened to make that other site appear, but I do know that the principals are people I respect. I trust they have reasons for that which they did...

As for the way people are treated here, I will not comment about anyone else, but I have been treated so abysmally so many times, the I have a permanent value burned into my awareness of certain people here... I know for a fact that they have certain values, and have justified certain behavior, that are simply incompatible with my values.

This does not stop me from being cordial. I can be cordial to anyone, even those who do not earn that privilege. I try hard to keep my moods and my reactions under my control, and less under the control of sad cases who try hard to elicit reactions for their own needs. I am not always successful, but I do try.

Of course, this is often at odds with some who prove by their actions that they have no desire to earn respect. I am not speaking of any particular posters, so while there are a small cadre of posters who often take my comments as personal, you may want to note that you may easily be wrong... (If you really see yourself in this posting, you may contact me via PM, and I will tell you how I feel about you...) I am not speaking, as an example, of some whom regularly like to pull my strings. I am on a deeper level here, but that is well known to some on this site...

Finally, this is a private site, owned by a person, influenced as he may feel he wants to be, and run by some who have been invited to do so... The site is often attributed to the posters who give it life, but the management here is not under any illusion that they are not in charge, because they are, without any recourse or appeal... If the management does not want you here, there is very little you can do about it...
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:11 PM   #16
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I have a different perspective on this.

While it may be accurate to say that Frank Tropea "owns" SegwayChat, I don't think it's an adequate statement.

For one thing -- as far as I can see, he doesn't really get anything out of it -- but we do, and the Segway community does. We're the ones that make use of it, and benefit. So one aspect is, that Frank *provides us* with the SegwayChat site.

Including providing moderators.

Another aspect is that he CANNOT own the community that has grown up around the site. That's us. We could all go elsewhere -- others have. But from the results, I would assume his goal is for us to have a thriving community, hosted here. I don't know what other motivations he may have -- whether he has personal animosity toward any person or group that might conflict with that, but if so, I think by the large, his goal of having a thriving community has taken precedence. In fact, if there IS animosity, I suspect it is around a conflict with that goal, though that's speculation.

So, we can certainly have a vote, if we want. It could capture the sense of the community. Frank could either choose to implement it, or not. If not, we could decide to set up our OWN site over the issue.

I don't recommend that course. I could set up a new site. I have moderation skills. I could promote the new site, and attract new members, encourage the development of a new community.

To what end? It would be another fragmentation, a dilution of the community. There can be a time and place for such a thing -- a major philosophy difference, for example. My philosophy on moderation isn't exactly what is practiced here. I think mine is better -- yet I don't think it's ENOUGH better to fragment a community over.

And a substantial number would probably NOT regard mine as better, and others would be hurt at the very idea of an attempt.

I disagree with Karl about not getting over stuff. True, I don't think it wise to forget that certain people exhibited certain behaviors in the past. There are kinds of TRUST that you may never regain once lost.

But the past shouldn't be allowed to blind one to the present. And if someone who has behaved badly (or whom you have PERCEIVED to behave badly in the past) is now behaving in a positive way, I think it best to move forward based on the current behavior, not the past.

For what it's worth -- I have seen warring groups before. A very similar situation, actually. The hostility there was much more intense and occasionally spilled out into real-world events, online sabotage, and other nastiness. Whatever went down here that produced this split, I credit that it hasn't gone that route, at least not long-term.

I WOULD like to hear a response, ideally from Frank, or at least from the moderators on his behalf, about whether there is any openness to a modification of the policy, and the reasoning behind any limitations. I understand Will's reluctance to reopen old wounds, but I'm not asking for wounds to be reopened. Just more clarity about where the landmines lie, and what may be a productive ground for discussion, vs pointlessness.

If the wounds are really that deep and still that inflamed, I can understand it might take a while to figure out how to respond. Based on my experience, I would certainly want to give the impact of my response some serious thinking.
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:48 PM   #17
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We haven't had a response yet about who has the issue with the-site-that-shall-not-be-named.
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:54 PM   #18
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I have a different perspective on this.

......
I disagree with Karl about not getting over stuff. True, I don't think it wise to forget that certain people exhibited certain behaviors in the past. There are kinds of TRUST that you may never regain once lost.

But the past shouldn't be allowed to blind one to the present. And if someone who has behaved badly (or whom you have PERCEIVED to behave badly in the past) is now behaving in a positive way, I think it best to move forward based on the current behavior, not the past.
I know nothing of this history--and I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. But I do have a story to tell....

It has been said that at one time Bible translators were attempting to translate it into the language of a remote northern Native American tribe. In the process they discovered that these people had no word for "forgiveness", so they had to invent one. It was a made up word--a very long one <G>--meaning "to make it as if it had never happened."

Forgiveness doesn't mean that you have forgotten what happened but that whatever it was no longer has any power to control you--what you think, how you act and re-act.

I'll say no more.
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Old 07-24-2009, 10:50 AM   #19
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I have never had a conversation with Frank about this or that site. I have no direct contact with him.

The people that I know that have slighted me, (I will not speak for others, or will try not to as much as possible) are not Frank.

His name at the bottom of the page does not mean that he makes the daily decisions here. Others do.

As is so often the case, when less than scrupulous things are done, no one is anxious to step up and place their name as responsible.

There is a large subculture in humanity, and no less on this site, where people do things in anonymity and insist on keeping it that way. I am not talking just about posts, but far more activity...

In just about every portion of any society, there are those who strive to be the power behind the throne, the ones with the strings that they can pull, to make the publicly visible people dance... Yet they prefer to stay out of the light themselves...

And regardless of Bob's choices in how he lives his life, there are wrongs against me and more specifically my family, that do not get forgiven. I am not saying that a person should be treated uncivilly, and I was clear about his. I would be cordial, but never believe or trust them again.
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Old 07-24-2009, 11:13 AM   #20
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