Seat experiences?

[Bob.Kerns]

Originally Posted by rickb

Lily, I would open and hold the door for you if you were on or off the Segway..........old school courtesy. There are still many courteous people (a surprising number of kids) out there who will hold the door even if I'm entering a building using my cane.........I simply say thank you go on thru and get the next door for them, if there is one, and say now we are even on doors for the day. I still hold the door for women until I'm to old and beat up to do so.

If I think back people offered to hold the door for me when I got to a certain age........no cane........just apparently looking 'old'...........about the same time they start calling you sir or ma'am.

The problem is, if they hold the door for me -- much of the time I *cannot* pass, because they fail to account for the logistics. It's more of a problem going through a door in the direction it opens, when they're not also passing through, because they usually stand there *in the doorway* holding the door open, trying, unsuccessfully, to stand out of my way.

I don't mind the courtesy, and if they proceed through the door and open it with plenty of clearance, I hold the next one -- and it's always fun to watch their reaction.

If we're both passing through, I just try to be the one holding the door.

[KSagal]

Originally Posted by rickb

Lily, I would open and hold the door for you if you were on or off the Segway..........old school courtesy. There are still many courteous people (a surprising number of kids) out there who will hold the door even if I'm entering a building using my cane.........I simply say thank you go on thru and get the next door for them, if there is one, and say now we are even on doors for the day. I still hold the door for women until I'm to old and beat up to do so.

If I think back people offered to hold the door for me when I got to a certain age........no cane........just apparently looking 'old'...........about the same time they start calling you sir or ma'am.

Rickb, I am so glad you posted this. It was the first thing I thought of when Bob posted, forget Lily.

I always hold door for others. I surely do it for older folks and women more than young men, but I do hold doors as a simple courtesy. And I do try to stay out of the way, and as Bob said, sometimes you have to lean in to hold it. In those cases, where there is an issue for logistics as he says, or clearance, I have frequently made it obvious that I opened the door, and then hand off to the next person, instead of standing there and holding it. If you hold or open doors enough for others, it is a common move to hand off. (otherwise, you wind up holding it for a long time if there is a crowd)

I understand that there are times when people are a bit too accommodating to those with disabilities, and that can be seen as condescending to the person receiving the accommodation, but it is not always so, and I know more than one person with a disability that are a bit over sensitive to this.

I try hard not to let the inability of others to appreciate my actions overly impact my presentation. Many people, entirely regardless of a disability or not, simply no longer know how to deal with a common courtesy, or friendly accommodation, like holding a door. I have had many women, young and apparently trying too hard to be something else, be insulted when I hold a door for them. Even if they think it is somehow a slight, I choose not to hold my public acts hostage to their narrow thinking...

By the way, one very healthy and strong group that I hold the door for very often and regularly are fed ex and UPS drivers... I go out of my way to hold for anyone who seems to have their hands consumed. Regardless of their mobility style.

[rwoynaro]

Originally Posted by KSagal

Rickb, I am so glad you posted this. It was the first thing I thought of when Bob posted, forget Lily.

I always hold door for others. I surely do it for older folks and women more than young men, but I do hold doors as a simple courtesy. And I do try to stay out of the way, and as Bob said, sometimes you have to lean in to hold it. In those cases, where there is an issue for logistics as he says, or clearance, I have frequently made it obvious that I opened the door, and then hand off to the next person, instead of standing there and holding it. If you hold or open doors enough for others, it is a common move to hand off. (otherwise, you wind up holding it for a long time if there is a crowd)

I understand that there are times when people are a bit too accommodating to those with disabilities, and that can be seen as condescending to the person receiving the accommodation, but it is not always so, and I know more than one person with a disability that are a bit over sensitive to this.

I try hard not to let the inability of others to appreciate my actions overly impact my presentation. Many people, entirely regardless of a disability or not, simply no longer know how to deal with a common courtesy, or friendly accommodation, like holding a door. I have had many women, young and apparently trying too hard to be something else, be insulted when I hold a door for them. Even if they think it is somehow a slight, I choose not to hold my public acts hostage to their narrow thinking...

By the way, one very healthy and strong group that I hold the door for very often and regularly are fed ex and UPS drivers... I go out of my way to hold for anyone who seems to have their hands consumed. Regardless of their mobility style.

Hi Karl:

As a handicapped person (pretty significantly) I want to put forth one thing that you may want to consider when dealing with people that are handicapped... Rather than just automatically opening the door for them, simply ask first if you can get the door or open it for them before just doing it or assuming they want you to be involved in their passing thru the door. Some people (me included) simply prefer to do things for ourselves. It helps me maintain basic functionality and I actually enjoy doing things for myself. I fully understand it is normal social ettiquite and I would not suggest you dont follow that with "able-bodied" people, but you wont know the particulars of any individual's disablities or capabilities and something as simple as holding the door open is not always helpful nor wanted. If you ask first (and then listen to them and if they say "no thank you," dont ask "are you sure? " or try and insist that you hold it for them) If I say "no thank you, the typical almost-automatic response is "are you sure ?" Of course I am sure, I can think very rationally and am fully aware of my wants and needs.


In my case, I lean on the door for stability as I go thru and I also need to move it to maintain my center of balance. When sombody else holds the door, I am not able to move the door and consequently have to move my body instead to adjust to the space between myself and the door to stay centered over my hips so I can maintain vertical balance. It quite frankly is very annoying as its much easier if I just do it myself. Its not a matter of me feeling condescention, its simply not the best way. I am only speaking for myself, others my certainly espouse the behaviors you describe.

If you ask and listen to what they say, you can then chose to help or not help as you see fit and in that way you can provide the best assistance. Very few people wont take assistance that they actually want; in my case, there are situations that I will need help in and I ask for it in those cases. However, it leaves the decision in my hands. For those who truely have issues with being helped or asked if they need help, they DO have that right in our society... nobody has the right to interfere with how they chose to live their lives.

I routinely now speak up first and tell them that I dont need help or ask if I do and people are overwhelmingly helpful and supportive. I think people are just great-natured and I am blessed by it, they just want to help, which is a really wonderful thing. The problem is they dont always know how to help or when to "not help." So I take that as my responsibility to let them know right away and this has seemed to work out well. Thank you for being willing to help and showing concern for others though; I am very greatful for the generosity and support that most people such as yourself do offer though. Have a great day, my friend.

[KSagal]

rwoynaro,

I appreciate your position, but it is a harder thing to do than you seem to know.

I do not ask people nor do I have the time to ask them before opening the door. That is simply not real life.

In our case, if I were to open it, or start to open it, and you did not want me to, you could simply say, "I got it", and I would "hand it off to you" as I stated.

I do not treat people differently, to the best of my ability. I think the best of all folks, and try real hard to expect them to act civilly and pleasantly in general, and most do.

I do not assess each person I see, and say to myself, this one is able bodied, and therefore I will do this, or that one is mildly disabled, so I will do that, and that one is severely disabled and I will do this and that. I am sorry, but I do not think that way.

Most people I know want to be treated as most other people. While your argument about doors is very much valid and germane to your use of doors, it is not common, and common courtesy of opening doors, or yielding the right of way while walking on stairs or tight hallways is just something I do as a natural action, not a contrived or deliberated thing.

I do understand exactly what you are talking about with the doors, as when I am on a segway, I frequently see people open doors for me when I surely do not need them to, or leave the sidewalk as I approach, which they need not do, or many other exaggerated or otherwise unnecessary actions, but I do not take offense.

People are sometimes ignorant as to exactly what I want. Sometimes people trying to help me navigate thru doors actually make it harder, as has been said. Sometimes I offer to release them from their action, and thank them just the same, but often times it is better to accept their 'help' even though it does not help. I find it is discourteous to tell them no, or tell them that I do not want or need their help.

To give is a wonderful thing. To accept graciously is also a gracious thing.

To disrespect a person who is honestly trying to do a courteous and gracious thing, to me, is a rude or selfish thing to do.

I have never been good at receiving help, or complements, or gifts. I am a very independent type person. (and I too have a number of mobility impairments, but am blessed to be in relatively good shape) It was a hard thing to learn to do, for me at least, especially when the giver is not as good at getting done what I want than I would be, but I also feel it has value not to step on their effort, and to diminish their good intentioned try.

I will try to be more aware and more active in recognizing some of the issues you raised. I fear I will not be as good at it as you suggested, but I will try.

I hope that those who I extend effort to will recognize both the effort, and the results.

And, I do wish you a good day, and an even better one tomorrow.

[rwoynaro]

Originally Posted by KSagal

rwoynaro,

I appreciate your position, but it is a harder thing to do than you seem to know.

I do not ask people nor do I have the time to ask them before opening the door. That is simply not real life.

In our case, if I were to open it, or start to open it, and you did not want me to, you could simply say, "I got it", and I would "hand it off to you" as I stated.

I do not treat people differently, to the best of my ability. I think the best of all folks, and try real hard to expect them to act civilly and pleasantly in general, and most do.

I do not assess each person I see, and say to myself, this one is able bodied, and therefore I will do this, or that one is mildly disabled, so I will do that, and that one is severely disabled and I will do this and that. I am sorry, but I do not think that way.

Most people I know want to be treated as most other people. While your argument about doors is very much valid and germane to your use of doors, it is not common, and common courtesy of opening doors, or yielding the right of way while walking on stairs or tight hallways is just something I do as a natural action, not a contrived or deliberated thing.

I do understand exactly what you are talking about with the doors, as when I am on a segway, I frequently see people open doors for me when I surely do not need them to, or leave the sidewalk as I approach, which they need not do, or many other exaggerated or otherwise unnecessary actions, but I do not take offense.

People are sometimes ignorant as to exactly what I want. Sometimes people trying to help me navigate thru doors actually make it harder, as has been said. Sometimes I offer to release them from their action, and thank them just the same, but often times it is better to accept their 'help' even though it does not help. I find it is discourteous to tell them no, or tell them that I do not want or need their help.

To give is a wonderful thing. To accept graciously is also a gracious thing.

To disrespect a person who is honestly trying to do a courteous and gracious thing, to me, is a rude or selfish thing to do.

I have never been good at receiving help, or complements, or gifts. I am a very independent type person. (and I too have a number of mobility impairments, but am blessed to be in relatively good shape) It was a hard thing to learn to do, for me at least, especially when the giver is not as good at getting done what I want than I would be, but I also feel it has value not to step on their effort, and to diminish their good intentioned try.

I will try to be more aware and more active in recognizing some of the issues you raised. I fear I will not be as good at it as you suggested, but I will try.

I hope that those who I extend effort to will recognize both the effort, and the results.

And, I do wish you a good day, and an even better one tomorrow.

Thanks Karl, I appreciate your insights as well, I think I learned from you too. Now that I read it, it probably does seem pretty unlikely to take the time out to ask before opening a door as it is just one of those automatic things our society does. I still have some learning to do. Take care.

[Bob.Kerns]

Originally Posted by KSagal

To disrespect a person who is honestly trying to do a courteous and gracious thing, to me, is a rude or selfish thing to do.

As who started this particular sub-thread, let me point out nobody has indicated any disrespect for people trying to be courteous and helpful.

That's exactly what makes it difficult -- the conflict inherent in respecting their good intentions, and the conflict with my needs.

You can't even fault them for their ignorance. How would they know? Even when they ask, and don't listen to my response -- what's at work there is there expectations -- and the new information doesn't have time to catch up. They're at the door before it sinks in, and then what do they do?

In a wheelchair, the situation is very different! I *hate* dealing with doors in a wheelchair. My long legs invariably get in the way, and I always feel like I'm one hand short of a full set -- 3 hands short if I'm carrying anything.

[KSagal]

Originally Posted by Bob.Kerns

As who started this particular sub-thread, let me point out nobody has indicated any disrespect for people trying to be courteous and helpful.

That's exactly what makes it difficult -- the conflict inherent in respecting their good intentions, and the conflict with my needs.

You can't even fault them for their ignorance. How would they know? Even when they ask, and don't listen to my response -- what's at work there is there expectations -- and the new information doesn't have time to catch up. They're at the door before it sinks in, and then what do they do?

In a wheelchair, the situation is very different! I *hate* dealing with doors in a wheelchair. My long legs invariably get in the way, and I always feel like I'm one hand short of a full set -- 3 hands short if I'm carrying anything.

Of course you are right, Bob.

But not accepting help that is not needed or even is not really help is not the same as disrespecting a person.

You and I disagree all the time. Yet, we do not see the need to show disrespect. Others may disagree in a different manner, and that can be, but is not necessarily disrespectful.

What I was trying to express in my statement that you quoted, is that it is sometimes disrespectful to expect a person who is trying genuinely to be respectful and courteous, to always get it right. When is person is offering what I perceive to be a genuine effort of good will, I will often accept what they do, even if it does not really help my situation. I went on to explain that sometimes it even makes it harder.

The example of holding the door is a good one. If a person is genuinely trying to help, yet their holding the door is not really a help to you, I feel it is a gift of sorts that I can give back to them, to not point out that in this exact situation, they are making it a bit worse, instead of better. I know that 9 times out of 10, when they do what they are doing (holding a door for someone) that it is a good thing all around. They know it too. If I were to tell them not to hold the door for me it may go toward them not holding the door for the next guy either.

There are times when I extend a courtesy to someone, and they clearly do not acknowledge, or seemingly do not care. I find this disrespectful.

A good example of this is when I slow down or stop to allow another person into my lane in traffic. If I do this, I appreciate a wave, or head bob, or eye contact that acknowledges my small gift. When I do not get this, or get some negative impression instead, I feel it is a slight.

Once a slight like this is felt, it is easier to not let the next situation be the same, and it is natural to not let the next person have the same courtesy, because of the rude reaction from the last person.

I try hard not to let the next driver have to suffer and pay for the arrogance of the last driver. (as an example)

However, while I try hard not to let this influence what I feel is a proper and courteous way to drive, it does have an impact. I also know for a fact, that it has an impact on others as well, and feel that as a society, we are letting it cause us to be less courteous and less generous with the small efforts than we used to be.

So, while often the holding of the door is a gift I do not need, and sometimes it is even a gift that I cannot appreciate or use, I do try to accept it in the spirit it was offered, even if it actually is a step in the wrong direction.

Lets not make believe that I am unique here. I am simply expressing a sentiment that we all have (or should have) and have expressed from time to time.

What newlywed has not endured a horrible meal, and said it was good? The eating the burnt meal is a gift. What youth has not endured that pinch on the cheek from weird old aunt Martha? The smile and hug are a gift. The list could go on forever. (Some may fear my posting will as well, so I will conclude as my gift…)

I would rather be a cause for more of these tiny and pretty much insignificant gifts to flourish than to be the cause for them to diminish. Individually, they mean very little, but in aggregate, they do make life a more pleasant adventure.

[Lily Kerns]

Originally Posted by KSagal

]I would rather be a cause for more of these tiny and pretty much insignificant gifts to flourish than to be the cause for them to diminish. Individually, they mean very little, but in aggregate, they do make life a more pleasant adventure.

Karl. you can be very profound... Thank you!

I call these little thoughtful gestures "paper clip gifts." I was making a quick trip to the city one morning without time to eat before I left, so I stopped at the local Sonic to get a burrito (quick to eat and about the least messy if you must eat while drivng.)

It was a very windy morning and the young woman who waited on me was having a rough time managing her stack of bills to give me change for the $20 I gave her. I just happened to have a large paper clip lying on the seat beside me and gave it to her. This is what I use to hold bills together in my purse--easy to remove and reorder.

I think I made her day with this very simple gift. I'm sure most of us could come up with another name for this that would have equally simple and effective personal meaning... Just for the record, this little incident also made exactly the sermon illustration I needed later that week....

[Bob.Kerns]

Originally Posted by KSagal

The example of holding the door is a good one. If a person is genuinely trying to help, yet their holding the door is not really a help to you, I feel it is a gift of sorts that I can give back to them, to not point out that in this exact situation, they are making it a bit worse, instead of better. I know that 9 times out of 10, when they do what they are doing (holding a door for someone) that it is a good thing all around. They know it too. If I were to tell them not to hold the door for me it may go toward them not holding the door for the next guy either.

Exactly right. I would rather accept their help for that reason -- and do, when I can, but often it's simply impossible. They help; I am blocked, and there's no way around it.

It seems to happen in doctor's offices a lot -- more often patients, rather than staff. And quite often, they've gone quite a bit out of their way to try to help, more than they would someone without a disability -- though perhaps akin to what help they might offer a burdened delivery person.

What I try to do in those cases (after thanking them for their effort) is to divert attention from any perception that they did something wrong, to "look, see what a Segway can do!".

But even so, they generally end up with a somewhat chastened look.

But on the flip side of the coin -- I am often asked to get things down from high grocery shelves! I've always gotten that occasionally, being tall, but far more often with the Segway. I should ask for help getting stuff off low grocery shelves more often, I guess.

[rwoynaro]

Originally Posted by Bob.Kerns

Exactly right. I would rather accept their help for that reason -- and do, when I can, but often it's simply impossible. They help; I am blocked, and there's no way around it.

It seems to happen in doctor's offices a lot -- more often patients, rather than staff. And quite often, they've gone quite a bit out of their way to try to help, more than they would someone without a disability -- though perhaps akin to what help they might offer a burdened delivery person.

What I try to do in those cases (after thanking them for their effort) is to divert attention from any perception that they did something wrong, to "look, see what a Segway can do!".

But even so, they generally end up with a somewhat chastened look.

But on the flip side of the coin -- I am often asked to get things down from high grocery shelves! I've always gotten that occasionally, being tall, but far more often with the Segway. I should ask for help getting stuff off low grocery shelves more often, I guess.

I always have to ask for help getting something from one of the lower shelves at the grocery story. One other thing about some stores is that some of the display cases (like at the butcher with the lunch meats) or some of the freezer cases extend outward and to get to the product inside, I have to lean forward pretty far, which tells the Seg to start going forward and its not happy with the obstruction when the wheels hit the display.

Since I use a SegSaddle and am seated, I stick my feet out over the front of the segway floor pads a few inches and use that as a guide. Once my feet hit the display case, I dont go any farther forward and I know the wheels are still unobstructed. If I can't reach it at this point, I ask for help. This seems to work for me and if I do this, I dont end up running the seg into the case when reaching for something. There is usually a way around most things, but you just have to keep trying to find out how to adapt. Its pretty amazing how much you can actually do on a Segway.