Merged "A Most Upsetting Incident" combined with "B&N and State of AZ"

[Tarkus]

After reading this and many of the comments made on the '"Theme Park" article I have to say this.

The Segway is misunderstood as much today by the "General Public" as it was 3 years ago. I read of people "flying through the air", "crashing into children and blind people". And then my personal fave "The Police in our town tried them and were being thrown off and injured".

All that from a device most have never even seen. Then there are those, make that many, that say "just sit in a wheelchair and like it".

Not to mention the stroller haters, old people haters and Homophobes.
Oops, I forgot the "obese" bashing......

You would think by accident they would have a better idea of what the Segway is about.

These are "anonymous" comments, thats scares me the most. When you don't have to give a name people say what they realy think.

Vile is the only word I can for the actions of the $5.00 coffee people and those that responded so ignorantly on those news stories.

Be Big,
Alan

[KSagal]

When I was 21, I got off active duty in the Army. I had worked hard to recover from my injuries, and separated from active duty with an A1 physical rating.

Only a 14 months earlier, I had a significant injury to my right knee, that included among other things, 14 hours on the operating table, and 10 months in various casts.

About 10 years later, after another episode of yet another failure of my knee to support my weight, I went to the VA, and asked them to help me with my current medical issue with my knee, and they encouraged me to register for a permanent disability. (Typically it is not too easy to prove a disability when you separate with an A1 rating)

After one review of my 4 inch think medical record, and a very quick physical exam, I was awarded an official disability. The damage was obvious to everyone but my earlier self... At 21, I did not want the Army to constantly remind me that I am not as whole as I was at 18.

Now, decades later, I have many good days and many bad ones. During that time, I learned to skydive, and taught it to hundreds of folks. I climbed many mountains, including the tallest one on the east coast. I also fell many times for no apparent reason, and won a third place show in a skydive competition, having gotten ON the plane with a dislocated knee, and went to the hospital afterwards.

Some people know I have bad knees (the other has suffered from carrying the 80% load for almost 30 years) and some do not.

When I am having a bad day, whether or not is shows to some stranger or not, I have no particular desire to take the time to explain this again and again. I have no particular desire to have to prove it to anyone. I have all the medical proof I need, and no legal requirement to prove it to anyone else...

I am very lucky in my life and health, and know it. I surely do not need to justify any of my situations to anyone. I have a handicapped parking plackard, and have yet to use it, and have never used it on my segway. Still it is valid, and on the days when I use any item more dependently because of my abilities of that particular day, I see no reason to have to explain myself to any self imposed disability cop...

Power to the Original poster, and he should go for the juggler. At his own pace. He is dead on right, and owes no one any explanations, in my opinion...

I was born with a bad heart. A very bad heart, it was malformed, and I was diagnosed with aortic stenois - a narrowing of the aorta going into the heart; the major feed into the heart for blood to be processed. I was also born somewhat misshapen; a spine that was both twisted and semi-solid due to en-utero spina bifida, a complete absence of neck, and an oversized head/cranium. In addition to the heart, the doctors told my folks, the physical birth defects indicated I was "probably" afflicted with Mongoloidism (hey, the concept of "political correctness" didn't exist back then), and were advised, simply, to put me in some home, as my life expectancy was less than five years.

Five years came and went. Then another five... then ten... then twenty. In that period of time, my heart enlarged by over 25%, and the common medical thinking of the time was that a muscle, when it's enlarged, becomes a stronger muscle, and since the heart is a muscle, if it's getting bigger, it must be getting stronger. Any cardiac care I received as a child was limited to an annual EKG and a barium x-ray. In the 1970s, research showed an enlarged heart was actually a weaker heart, but by that time, the damage had been done. I've lived my life the way I was raised: Don't limit yourself just because others tell you you're limited. Outside of sky-diving and paragliding, I've done everything I want to do... and still don't consider those two activities out of reach for me.

On September 15th, 1999, just 28 days after my 40th birthday (and on my mother's 60th birthday), I was in a Family Court in San Jose, CA. An ex of mine and I were seeking mutual restraining orders (which was a soap opera in and of itself... someone had hacked both our AOL accounts and was sending messages to him, as me, and messages to me, as him, that were mean, cruel and threatening. Turned out to be his ex's then-current paramour, who thought the whole thing was funny), when I started coughing. Quietly at first, but soon it was a full blown hacking that drowned out the court proceedings. I simply couldn't stop.

The judge sent the bailiff back to the gallery to see if I needed assistance. I stood up to leave - I was going to get some water... and immediately collapsed back into my seat, still coughing. The bailiff reached down to my wrist, started taking my pulse, and immediately turned and, literally, yelled out to the Judge (interrupting the proceedings of the current case on docket): "We need an ambulance, now."

When the EMTs arrived, my pulse was 212, my blood pressure was 65/48. I was in full blown congestive heart failure; my lungs had almost completely filled with fluids; the coughing was me, literally, drowning on fluids the heart could no longer process out of my lungs.

Over the next 8 years, my heart has done nothing but degenerate, despite having two valves replaced and bypasses. In my entire life, I've only spent less than a day not experiencing afib (atrial fibrilation). I've been on the heart transplant list here in Arizona for almost two years, but I keep getting pulled from the list as other organs begin to fail due to the decreased capacity of my cardiovascular system. My doctor will not release me to go back to work in any capacity, and steadfastly refuses to allow me to drive - his concern isn't for me, as much as it is for other, innocent, people on the road. All my life I've known that one day I'm going to say "Ugh," grab my left arm, and go face down in the mashed potatoes. My doc doesn't want that moment to coincide with me travelling at 60 mph in traffic. Can't blame him.

Every day, I try to get some exercise. Primarily, my only form of exercise has been walking. There's a Safeway store exactly 1/4 mile from my home, door-to-door. It had become my habit to walk down to Safeway, daily, purchase a salad or deli sandwich for lunch, and walk back home to eat lunch in front of old episodes of "Law and Order," or new episodes of "Christina's Court." In late April, I set out for Safeway, got my sandwich, and started walking home... and never made it. I went down on the street corner at the end of the block. At first, my vision had blurred, so I thought my blood sugar had dropped (as the heart degenerated, my pancreas function plummeted; I've become an insulin dependent diabetic). "No problem," I thought, since I was going to eat when I got home anyway.

I took another step, and got sucker punched in the chest... "Okay," I said to myself, "Angina. Take a nitro." I stopped, put a nitro under my tongue, and waited for the headache nitro always gives me. The pain subsided, I took a step and "WAM!" right in my side, just at my kidneys. Again, I had been previously diagnosed with kidney failure due to the heart, and have since been playing with too wet/too dry syndrome, trying to find that magic spot where the diuretic for the CHF didn't completely dehydrate me, effecting my kidneys. So I took a big swig of the 2-liter bottle of Aquafina I had with me. And took another step...

And was on the ground, completely immobile. Thankfully, a Good Samaritan pulled over, almost immediately. This guy, as luck would have it, was also a RN - an oncology nurse at a local hospital. I could hear him; I could feel him touching me. He was putting his fingers on my wrist, while also getting his cell phone to call for help. I heard him tell 9-1-1 "I'm a nurse; I can't get a pulse on him, and he's being unresponsive." I simply couldn't communicate with him in anyway. The ambulance arrived and immediately, with me still on the street, ran an IV into me before getting me on gurney. They lifted me, I was completely dead weight and unresponsive, and put me in the ambulance. One of our neighbors, apparently, had seen what was going on and called Bill at work. Joe, the neighbor, was certain I was dead, and they were going to pronounce me at the hospital.

In the ambulance, I revived and was able to start communicating with the EMTs. At the ER, I was almost ambulatory. When the nurse brought me a gown, I was able to undress myself and throw my shirt, pants, etc. On a chair. I pulled out my cell and called Bill; he had just been getting ready to leave work as soon as he could find what hospital I was taken to. I told him, but also told him to just come at the end of his day; he'd already taken a lot of time off that week to take me to the doctor and then, on another day, for my monthly blood work. Ninety minutes later, Bill shows up and goes to sit down. As he picks up my clothes, he's the one who notices my shirt is still completely soaked.

In 85-degree weather, while taking a half-mile walk, and constantly swigging from a big bottle of water, I was Maricopa County's first official heat stroke victim of the season. My hypothalmus is now the latest organ to be affected by my heart's degeneration. The hypothalmus controls body temperature; in the ER, my temperature fluctuated from a low of 93 to a high of 101 over the next five hours.

Two days after that, when I was released from hospital after being pumped full of electrolytic fluids, Bill realized my mid-day walks were a thing of the past. He immediately began researching what was, and more specifically was not, "sidewalk legal" for the disabled in AZ. We had already purchase, three years ago, a little electric mini-scooter, but in our first year living in AZ, the county, city and state all made those illegal for street use (Kids, dontcha know). Bill quickly learned the only two devices for the disabled were wheelchairs and "two-wheeled, self-balancing electronic personal assisted mobility devices." First Bill bought, used, a Q-Rad, thinking it met the criteria (someone he worked with, a friend of both of ours, had seen one of her neighbors had it up for sale for $200, and just assumed it was a Segway). When he got it home and saw it had four wheels, instead of two, he went shopping on Ebay for a Segway.

(An aside here: Bill is an EXTREMELY legal person. One car length for every ten miles an hour; if the speed limit is 40, he does 38, just in case the speedometer not accurate. For Tuesday pick-up, our garbage cans do not go out to the curb earlier than 5pm Monday night... and if a "two-wheeled, self-balancing electronic personal assisted mobility devices" is the only thing legal, besides a wheelchair, then a "two-wheeled, self-balancing electronic personal assisted mobility device" it is.)

The EBay saga has been thoroughly covered in another thread, so I won't comment upon it here, except to say that little adventure led to the purchase of Gilligan.

Literally, at this point, I'm simply waiting for the face-meets-mashed-potatoes moment but, thankfully, with Gilligan, I don't have to sit in a house, wasting away in front of a television or computer screen, waiting for that moment to arrive. Like, I believe, any other person who lives with a life-altering injury, or a terminal condition/illness, I've gotten used to it. I know which little pang in my chest indicates something bad is going to happen. I know which pains in my body are attributable to my heart and which indicate something new is going on. I know what my boundaries are, today. Tomorrow, they might have shrunk down another 1/4" or so, but I'll know that tomorrow, and deal with it tomorrow. But with Gilligan, I can do those things I need to do, like get to my doctors' offices, or get my blood labs done - and Bill doesn't have to take the time off work to take me there. With Gilligan, I can still do some of the things I used to enjoy, like grab some cheap Chinese food, or go sit in a park and stare at the trees, the pond, the kids on the swingsets, he hot, young, firm bods of runners (whoops... did I say that out loud?) and go to a book store.

Yes, I've had the comments from onlookers we've all had... how much does that cost? (over $5K) How cool is that? (Much cooler than a wheelchair) Can I ride it? (Sure. Give me the keys and title to your car, first, though). I've only had one person give me a hard time about using it inside a building, prior to yesterday, and that person was quickly put in place by an employee of the Safeway store I was in.

I live with my condition 24/7/365 and have for 48 years now. I don't have to justify my existence to anyone. I don't have to explain my disability, or prove it, to anyone except new medical professionals and the state - and that "proof" is a one-time only deal with the state.

That.. woman... yesterday had just decided she was (blare of trumpets here, expelling appropriate royal/super-hero entrance music) THE STORE MANAGER (another, softened, blare), and damn state law. We all know the type and, yes, in retrospect, I could have just showed her the placard and everything would have been okay. It would only take.. what? 10 seconds to unzip the bag, reach in, pull out the placard? 30, tops, if she actually wanted to inspect the placard to insure its authenticity? Maybe a couple/five minutes if she actually wanted to call MVD and question the placard's authenticity.

Yeah, what's five minutes, tops?

Well, if I'm willing to do it with her, I then have to become willing to do it with everyone who might question my entrance to their establishment, everywhere. It's five minutes I'm going to have to keep giving and giving and giving so that I might, possibly, put some of our money in their pockets and buy something from them.

And, to be quite frank, it's five minutes I no longer have to spare, especially if I want to use those five minutes to learn to skydive or paraglide.

Eric Payne
Glendale, AZ

[Tarkus]

Eric,

Thats the reason I just stick the "International Handicap symbol" on my Seg. Should I have to, no but it saves alot of the "5 mins" of explanation.

Even with it I need to give to facts from time to time.

Of course I don't think it would have mattered in the case your speaking of. You got yourself a person that was going to be a big shot. Pay them no mind or you will lose yours.

Be Big,
Alan

Originally Posted by Tarkus

Eric,

Thats the reason I just stick the "International Handicap symbol" on my Seg. Should I have to, no but it saves alot of the "5 mins" of explanation.

Even with it I need to give to facts from time to time.

Of course I don't think it would have mattered in the case your speaking of. You got yourself a person that was going to be a big shot. Pay them no mind or you will lose yours.

And Alan, had you found yourself in the same situation as I, and after gentle nudging, on either side, became a push... and then a shove... and then you find yourself in depositions, etc., in some sort of civil measure...

Exactly what authority issued the "International Handicap Symbol" you display on your Seg?

For all I know, you, personally, have gone through the correct channels to obtain a legitimate handicapped designation via your state's laws. I'm not even going to question that.

But there was another poster in this thread who freely admits to purchasing a "handicapped symbol" from Ebay, displaying that on their unit, and telling me "that's what (I) should do."

In essence, that poster is recommending I commit fraud and forgery of official documents to avoid being hassled by someone... but I've already gone through the official, legal, channels and the person who hassled me is in violation of already established law in doing the hassling.

The state of Arizona has already determined I'm handicapped. The state of Arizona has expanded the scope of Disability Mobility Assistance Devices to include "two wheeled, self-balancing electronic mobility devices." The state of Arizona has, officially, defined the Segway as a "two wheeled, self-balancing electronic mobility device." All businesses in the state, doing direct contact business with the public, must adhere to the guidelines of the Americans with Disabilities Act. One of those provisions is their business be accessible to those disabled who use a mobility device. Another is that they may not ask the nature of, nor ask for proof of, a person's disability.

I've gone through all the correct channels. Had the woman been the slightest bit more polite, I would, probably, have accommodated her request to see my "handicapped things," as I did have it with me. She, however, was brusque and rude, she asked me at moment where my blood sugar was taking a nose dive and after diabetic complications were causing intense pain in my feet. She was going to be <Ta-DAH!!!!> THE STORE MANAGER </Ta-DAH> and her authority was going to be absolute.

And, she's now finding out her authority was, at best, minimal. Yesterday afternoon, I was informed by the manager of the Barnes and Noble I telephoned, from the store in which this altercation was taking place, that the girl who had given me the local "sex line" phone number as their coprorate number, then later claimed corporate's number was "a secret" was terminated from her position, and did state the woman, Sammi, at the store I was in had contacted her, ordering her not to give corporate's number to me.

I actually feel bad for that girl (her name was May). And if I were May, my first stop, after leaving the store in which I was previously employed, would have been Sammi's store... where I would walk up to her, and very loudly say: "You BITCH. You got me fired you <fill in expletive of choice here>."

Eric Payne
Glendale, AZ

[KSagal]

Don't let go. May should have been fired for participating in this dispicable behaviour. Furthermore, if Sammi is above her as a manager in this corporation, and May was directly ordered to give you mis-information, and fired because she did what a manager told her to do, she has a legal protections under the law. She can sue for lost wages.

I suspect that at least some of the employees who were instructed to reverse their badges felt uncomfortable about it. Even though most will not stand up and place their jobs in jeopardy, it would only take one. Then the lid would be blown off, and that corporation would rather compensate you than an alternative that I am about to suggest...

Many local tv stations have consumer advocates and do human interest stories to fill in between hard news events. You may consider contacting one of them, and they can do a story of the trials and triblations you have to do, and your story of overcomming them with gilligan, and the troglidites you encounter along the way... IF you get that film crew into that store, and have that reporter ask the various clerks how it felt when they reversed their badges and did not offer the services to you that are required by law, you may be surprised how happy the Corporate higher-ups may be to be cooperative...

Sometimes our efforts make our life easier. On good days, our efforts can do that but also make someone else's life easier. You may have been the first in this store with this issue, but you will not be the last.

[Dave Bittner]

One of the things that strikes about using segways as mobility aids, that people using other mobility aids don't deal with, is the fact that most other mobility aids don't also have a large percentage of purely recreational users. You don't generally see people cruising around on motorized wheelchairs just for fun.

The closest example I can think of to this are guide dogs. Most business locations don't allow you to bring just any old dog into their establishment, but guide dogs are fine. And most guide dogs have a clearly visible harness, many that are even color coded to indicate the working status of the dog.

So, perhaps it would be useful to think of your segway as your mechanized guide dog. The handicapped placard is the equivelant of the harness, making it easy for people to tell the difference between a "working" segway and one that's just a "pet."

I understand that the ADA and your local laws state that you don't have to put a handicapped placard on your segway, and can understand your frustration, but it seems to me that while we're all still educating the general public a placard is the easiest way to teach them that many segways are used as mobility devices, even if the placard is not technically required. I doubt, given your situation, that anyone will take you to task for the "innapropriate" use of a handicapped placard.

Originally Posted by Dave Bittner

One of the things that strikes about using segways as mobility aids, that people using other mobility aids don't deal with, is the fact that most other mobility aids don't also have a large percentage of purely recreational users. You don't generally see people cruising around on motorized wheelchairs just for fun...

Maybe this is just me, but if I were a retailer, and there was someone in my store who had already show a propensity for, oh, dropping upwards of $10K or so on a a "toy"....

I'd probably WANT them in my store, because who knows what might catch their eye?

Eric Payne
Glendale, AZ

[KSagal]

Originally Posted by Eric Payne

Maybe this is just me, but if I were a retailer, and there was someone in my store who had already show a propensity for, oh, dropping upwards of $10K or so on a a "toy"....

I'd probably WANT them in my store, because who knows what might catch their eye?

Eric Payne
Glendale, AZ

You know, this is a very valid point.

I live in the Boston area, but the corporate headquarters for my employer is in Durham, NC.

WHen down there on business, I bring my segway, and have been going to a mall there. That mall is known for not being particularly segway friendly...

Since I am not a teenager, I don't go to the mall to hang around, but to buy something.

Often, I buy trinkets or toys or inconsequencial things for myself or my children. Sometimes I buy gifts for my wife of children....

Since my wife likes shiny stuff, and I am likely to bring home goodies when I travel anyway, I have a pattern that works for me...

If I go to jewler, or to an upscale department store, I get a bag when I make a purchase, as expected, but I do this first upon entering the mall. I might buy something at a nice boutique, or Lord and Taylor, or Norstroms, or where-ever. I place this bag (I always get a big bag) over the handlebar, in plain sight.

I then do my shopping, like to the kiosks and buy by cell phone do-dads or other toys and crap that I also buy. I place it all in the Lord and taylor bag...

You would be surprised how even a simple security guard can be made to realize that a person with a large bag from one of the more expensive anchor stores in that mall, on an expensive device, may be too much for them to chew on. If they are not sure, I am polite, but also quite clear that it will not be as easy as they think to order me around...

A mall is all about merchandising, and a store manager or six make an effective weopon to rebuff an overly aggressive rent-a-cop.

This only works if you are indeed not doing anything that is dangerous. I must express that I am not only on the segway, but also a good mall patron, not just a member of the general public when this is happening. There should not be, but there is a difference...

[polo_pro]

Originally Posted by Mr_Laurenzano

20% VA
10 for my feet
and 10% for PTSD

When they ask me to explain my disablity I tell them that it is triggered by loosing my freedom and I become unexplainablly violent, with no memmory of the event. Then I kick people wildly and call my lawer on speed dial one. It's very effective and rarley do they denie my access to where-ever.
Eric Please SUE THEM HARD. When the direct actions of people cause harm to those arround them they ussally are arrested.
CALL THE LOCAL NEWS- have them meet you there and give demos right out front.
I can come and visit. Wait till they get a load of me.
CRASH, Antonio R Laurenzano, LVN
Accident free since 2003

Ah...a classic Mr L post! And quite understandable too? I nominate it for the 2007 best of SC contest.

ps - Mr L, given how Eric handled the stolen segway situation earlier this year, I have no doubt he'll take this matter to its natural conclusion (and follow up with us here to let us know how he's managed to make this a win-win situation for everyone involved). Though IMHO, I feel any "natural conclusion" should involve firing one particular employee.

Eric, I'd be willing to contribute $100 towards retaining a lawyer if you end up litigating. As much as words of encouragement (and disability advocate groups) are important, sometimes nothing beats a legal challenge as someone (and the ACLU) in NM showed us. And that takes people supporting this specific effort with their wallets.