Disney Response Part II

[drmarty]

From Steven:
"Anybody can use a wheelchair. Only a Doctor can PRESCRIBE it. That means that I, Joe BagODonuts, Joe Schmuckatelli, or any other named individual can buy one, offer one for use, or pretty much do anything they want with it but only a Doctor can PRESCRIBE it."

Well, Joe (I mean Steven), anybody can use heroin too. But just because you can buy it doesn't mean you are supposed to. So if you or Joe BagODonuts or whoever offers it for use they are violating Federal law. The person selling it to you is in violation of federal law.

This is the law:

Caution: Federal law restricts this device to sale by or on the order of a practitioner licensed by the law of the State in which he/she practices."


So my point is that if we are trying to get Disney to allow impaired persons in with their Segways then we have Federal law backing us up at least as far as limiting them providing wheelchairs and "Medically Approved" scooters. If they think they (Dizzyland or any public place that restricts Segways and offers wheelchairs) are in compliance because they offer an alternative then they are wrong. They are not allowed to prescribe wheelchairs at the entrance of Disneyland or the mall that the gentleman is sueing.


Again from Steven:
"This precludes the Segway totally..it is not a manually operated device. However, that is the wrong argument. The argument is that the Segway is a mobility aid."

Sorry it is not clear what I meant. You missed my point completely. I was not comparing it to a Segway. If you want to do that then here is the quote from the CFR:

(a) Identification. A powered wheelchair is a battery-operated device with wheels that is intended for medical purposes to provide mobility to persons restricted to a sitting position.

My point was that previously someone had found in the CFR (I believe) a common definition of a wheelchair which included it being 3 or 4 wheeled and someone was denied use of a Segway because it only had 2. This definition has changed as of 1 Apr 06 (again to the best of my ability to go through these regulations) and now it only says device with wheels.

This gets very complicated. Yes, if we were able to direct the discourse we would call it a mobility aid but they of course will try to prevent that as they did in the case I mentioned.

I was pointing out the change in definition so if someone is told no because..."it only has two wheels" they will be aware that that is no longer a differentiating item according to the Federal government and ANSI. I did not intend it to be the centerpiece of a coordinated assault on all these inequities. I even titled that section "Maybe a little help." It was just some additional information I thought some people would want to have.

We should all know as much of this info as possible, not for Disneyland because They Don't Want Us, but for all the other places like malls who want to sit us down and move backwards. Getting up and out of the wheelchair is/should be the goal of the patients, the doctors, and even society.

I am chomping at the bit to formulate a reply to Mr Minnick's letter to Mr Sumner. But then I keep reminding my self that Minnick is not a decision maker. He was told to write a letter to Mr Sumner telling him WHY NOT. He was not reviewing the policy and revaluating their position. He is so busy rambling on in his letter and patting Disneyland on the back, and Blah Blah Blah, that I think he forgot what his title is. "Technical Director, Global Accessibility and Facility Safety." More like the "Director of Accessibility Prevention and Fossil Safety"

Marty

[Desert_Seg]

Marty,

I'm not sure where you are finding that wheelchairs can only be sold / issued by a licensed practitioner. I've spent a few hours tonight looking this up (jet lag, you know) and nowhere in the CFR do I see that (and I looked right at your citation which can be found here http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...cfr890_06.html, scroll down to 890.3850, and click on either link)

In fact, throughout all my research, I found nothing regulating the sale or provisioning of wheelchairs.

Furthermore, Disney isn't trying to ban the Segway on grounds that it doesn't fit the "old" # of wheels definition. Disney is basing (at first blush) its ban of the Segway on the fact that it bans ALL two-wheeled modes of transportation.

Also, the Segway would never qualify as a "wheelchair" as it does not meet the "device with wheels that is intended for medical purposes" definition.

Not being ornery, only pointing out that having had to procure wheelchairs for both my daughter and my mother that no prescription or special permit is / was required.

Steven

[drmarty]

Steven,

The reference is in my other post. But here it is again:

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/ode/346.html

And the title is:

Guidance Document For the Preparation of
Premarket Notification [510(K)] Applications For
Mechanical and Powered Wheelchairs, and
Motorized Three-Wheeled Vehicles

And so you don't have to look it up, here is the section on labelling: (highlighting mine)

"Labeling


Provide draft or sample package labeling, package inserts, including complete operator's instructions, and required labeling regarding electromagnetic interference (EMI) according to FDA's March 26, 1994 labeling letter mailed to wheelchair manufacturers (copy attached).


Provide the following prescription statement (both on the device itself and in the operator's manual, and in any advertising and/or promotional materials) according to 21 CFR 801.109:

Caution: Federal law restricts this device to sale by or on the order of a practitioner licensed by the law of the State in which he/she practices."

Include copies of promotional materials for the new and predicate devices.


Provide cleaning instructions."


Nobody, especially me ever said Disney was "trying to ban the Segway on grounds that it doesn't fit the "old" # of wheels definition."

It gets complicated to keep the arguements and issues seperate and clear. I can't do it. For instance I also never said or thought that a Segway was a wheelchair. It is not and never will be. And I don't want it to be. Keeping these things straight is another reason why trying to argue the points with Disney or almost anyone is foolish. They get mixed up like you did and then say "The segway is not a wheelchair." when the point about the definition of a wheelchair was only in response to a completely seperate issue.

And I don't care if you are or are not being ornery, point out what you like but the law is the law. Just because you were able to break it doesn't mean it isn't the law. I doubt you will get it but good, bad, or indifferent if it is a wheelchair the Federal law says and I quote "Caution: Federal law restricts this device to sale by or on the order of a practitioner licensed by the law of the State in which he/she practices."

I haven't seen many wheelchair police out tho, so not to worry.

Marty

[Desert_Seg]

Originally Posted by drmarty

Steven,

The reference is in my other post. But here it is again:

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/ode/346.html

And the title is:

Guidance Document For the Preparation of
Premarket Notification [510(K)] Applications For
Mechanical and Powered Wheelchairs, and
Motorized Three-Wheeled Vehicles

...

Marty,

I was hoping that wasn't your sole reference. The cited reference applies only to pre-market devices that are submitted for evaluation by the FDA. It does NOT apply to approved devices.

In fact, once the FDA approves a device they then set the requirements as to requiring a prescription and, in the case of wheelchairs, I can find no evidence that APPROVED devices require a prescription. I can, however, find ample evidence that a prescription is not required.

Don't worry about being ornery...I've been accused of being the same on more than one occasion.

Steven

[IcanGlide]

We may be chasing the wrong rabbit. From what I understand, a prescription is required for insurance purposes, so the insurance company will pay, not for everyday use by the public. If it took a doctor everytime someone was directed to a wheelchair, some places would be in a world of hurt--like hospitals discharging patients.

One of the things we need is the words "mobility aid" replacing the word "wheelchair" in the ADA. This would take the action of Congress or the Justice Department or both. And we as Segway users could start that wheel rolling with letters, e-mails or phone calls. Arguing over nit-picky definitions or interpretations of law is pointless with Disney. We need big guns and they don't come any bigger than Congress or the JD.

Frank

[KSagal]

I would like to throw my two senses into the argument...

On the thought of having all segway owners, able bodied, disabled, and everyone in between, sign a petition to impress Disney, it ain't gonna happen. At last count, I was under the impression that less than 30K have been sold. I believe that half of them were not in the United States, and half of those that are in the US, have gone to commercial or security agencies. That leaves 7 or 8K signatures available, and you just aren't going to get that done, and each and every one of their theme parks see that many people hourly...

And regardless of my love for my Segway, and my desire to not support any organization who does not support my issues, my 3 year old still likes the whole crew, and so does my 7 year old... Am I really supposed to try to explain how the mouse has annoyed daddy to the point that he will not take them? My wife is looking forward to a week with the mouse for her 40th birthday, and would want to go even without the kids... (I will and would have hated it all anyway, regardless of this topic, but even with my distaste for the whole thing, I plan to do the Dad thing, as that is far more important than this topic)

Next to consider... Liability...

What is the position of Disney, if a mobility impared person were to want to go into the park, and then decide to sit with their child/grandchild in a ride? They park their segway, and get on the ride... Some other out of control, unwatched, spawn of the great unwashed gets on the segway and falls into the crowd/into the water/ into the allagator pit....whatever... Now, Disney is looking at a lawsuit, even if it is clear that the parent should have watched their child, and that child was tresspassing on the segway, etc, etc... This is not to say that Disney is right, but it does recognise one of the clear dangers of them allowing people into the park on mobility devices, especially those as cool as segways. I am sure that this must happen, but I really do not see the same thing happening to the wheelchair that the person got out of to go on the ride. (Presuming they were ambulatory enough to get out of the wheelchair. I am presuming that we are speakng of a person that has mobility issues, but can use a segway, which means if required to use the wheelchair, they can get out for short times...)

My Sister-in-Law is in a wheelchair due to a spinal injury 15 years ago. Clearly, a segway has no potential for her, as she cannot stand. Still, I have had discussions about the potential of the Ibot for her with my brother, and he basicly likes it a bit, but thinks it is too expensive (Sound familiar?) and then the conversation went onto other devices... He spoke of a class of wheelchair, for people with spine injuries and others, who cannot stand, but should not sit exclusively either... He said there are verticle wheelchairs, not unlike an electric seated one, but the person is strapped in, and supported properly, yet the device holds them in a "standing" or near standing position. Perhaps DR Marty can weigh in here...

If the new definition of a wheel chair includes that it is specifically for those who are restricted to a sitting position... I personally presume (And that has no legal value at all) that the wording is designed to indicate a person who cannot stand under their own power, but where does the verticle wheel chair fit in? Is that another device that Disney would dis-allow?

This topic just gets muddier and muddier....

[Sharkie]

Here's a link to a "wheelchair" that keeps the person in an upright position.

http://www.vertran.com/

Jim

[hellphish]

That thing looks sooooo scary. I'm sure there isn't any intelligence in the machine to keep you from falling forward.

[Sharkie]

When you consider that the center of gravity is well behind the wheels, there really isn't a lot of danger of it falling forward. It's not obvious from those pictures, but the person is actually leaning back a bit.

Jim

[hellphish]

I've never operated an electric wheelchair before, but I would imagine they are able to stop pretty quickly.