Civil Disobedience

[Gihgehls]

Alan, I fully support this line of action. The law is the law. Or.. it is what it is

Good luck, mate.

[Tarkus]

Originally Posted by Timezkware Tim

My wife told me once that there's an old German saying that goes something like, "When two people are having an arguement, the first one that shouts, loses". You may think that you're making a statement to help a cause, but if the common perception is that you are a troublemaker, then you are a troublemaker. Then all Seggers are troublemakers. Disabled or not, you represent all of us everytime you're on your rig in public.

When somone commits civil disobedience over young people dying in a war, that's one thing. You're planning to inconvenience several security people and Police, and disrupt the working and shopping day for others getting arrested over a Segway.You and other disabled people may benefit from Segways, but last time I checked they're not wheelchairs.

The mall is a private business. If you buy a ticket to the pokey, you will only hurt the cause to have Segways accepted in society, IMO. They have the right to say no. It's their private place of business.


As I said, perception is reality, and once you do this, it can't be undone. Think about it. There are more efficient ways to further a cause.

If Simon Co. is breaking the law and discriminating somehow, maybe I'm totally misinformed as far as the law goes where you are. I still think getting yourself arrested should be reserved for saving the lives of people or even animals. A Segway in a store? You won't get much sympathy. People will say, "Get a wheelchair if you're disabled".

JMHO. Hope you make the right decision. Good luck.

Tim

Tim,

First the obligatory disclaimer. "The Segway is no an FDA approved device"
But it does not have to be.

In all due respect you have little understanding of Title III of the ADA.

Every thing in bold is incorrect.

Your "fear" that somehow a disabled person legally using the HT as a mobility will create a problem for all Seggers is just nonsense.

I don't think you "checked" what is or is not the law, I think you may have heard something that was inaccurate.

Yes we benefit from the Seg, but you better check again as what is a "wheelchair". and "mobility devise under title III.

The Mall is like a Theme park, places of public accommodation under Title III ADA.

A Segway in a store ?.....I read about able bodied Seggers on this forum want to ride in stores, that's absurd.


Regards,
Alan

PS-I have a surgery tomorrow that may not allow my impending arrest.

As far as what the law is, I've got it in my pocket and so does Simon Malls they just in some cases chose to ignore it.

In fairness to the local Simon properties have not been a problem since this thread started. I have had access here in Northeast Florida.

But other Simon Malls still hold fast .

I will continue to do what I do. If not at Simon then who ever is next.
I don't run scared.


THE LAW:


http://www.fta.dot.gov/civilrights/a...ghts_3894.html

This is a link to the FTA “common wheelchair” definition. This is the definition most places use as their guidelines.


http://www.draft.cc/draft3/Portals/0...20Guidance.pdf

This is a link to the FTA guidance for Segway use.


This is a personal choice. I fly a handicapped placard, it's not necessary but I find I get less questions.


Other legalities to be aware of:


Assistive Technology Act of 1998

In this act congress defined Assistive Technology as “any device item piece of equipment, or products system, whether acquired commercially, modified, or customized, that is used to increase, maintain, or improve functional capabilities of individual with disabilities.”


Defining Assistive Devices

One of the dangers of definitions that they may be imprecise with ever-growing changes in technology, in 1991 Attorney General Richard Thornburgh in publishing the first regulations in implementing the ADA consistently said that "there would no exhaustive list of devices and services protected under the ADA because any attempt to do so would omit the new devices that would become available with emerging technology".

[Sal]

I do applaud Alan for standing up for what he believes in. If I were in his position, I don't know if I would have the cajones or tenacity to do the same thing (it all depends on how much the situation offends me). We all know that Tarkus doesn't give "the Mouse" any money, again, it all depends on how much the issue affects the person.

I don't think its fair to compare this situation to Rosa Parks (if only because Alan would be allowed on Simon property if he were using a different device [which is his choice], and Parks was banned for being who she was).

Even though I agree that private property owners have the right to set whatever rules they would deem reasonable / legal. I can't see the banning of Segways (used by those who need them for mobility) being fair or reasonable.

I see three wheeled scooters, power wheelchairs, etc, large, awkward devices being used in the malls here.

The key here is the question about what rule is "reasonable" when applied to the common public / and those with mobility issues.

-Sal

P.S. Besides, this is such a unique fight that I bet Alan is successful in his efforts. Come up with any logical argument for banning Segways, and after all the valid retorts have destroyed their position, all that's left is Simon's corporate preference. (If Safety is an issue, comment that their Security uses them, and they use them poorly). Compare a Segway owner with YEARS of experience under his/her belt, with poorly and inadequately trained mall security. They're more of a risk than we users could ever be.

[Timezkware Tim]

Originally Posted by Desert_Seg

Tim,

Alan does qualify under the Americans with Disabilities Act and, therefore, can use ANY form of assistance to "get around". Be it a Segway, a roller skate, or a skate board, he cannot be discriminated against.

There is no such thing as an "approved" list of devices that are for the disabled....and a Segway is a great assistive device (the AD in EPAMD!).

Furthermore, Simon Malls may be privately owned but they are for public access and, therefore, MUST comply with ADA regulations. Using your comparison, the Sears Tower, Madison Square Garden, or even Dodger Stadium (all private) don't have to meet ADA regulations.

The analogy is a good one....

Steven

I still don't think the analogy is appropriate since racial discrimination against a group of people once sold as slaves is a bit different than a business who doesn't like a device. It's the machine they don't like. If it were a group of people, as in Rosa Park's case, they would also have a problem with people in wheelchairs.

However, I stand corrected as far as ADA regulations go. If disabled people can use whatever device they want to get around, then the mall is obligated to comply. I still think think Alan should make every attempt to discuss this issue with Simon's management in writing before getting himself arrested on TV. Simon is a rather big company. It's doubtful that their legal department would ultimately allow the company to knowingly break the law if they really knew what Alan's intentions were. Alan, was your complaint documented in writing? Does Simon know that a Segway is not a motorized vehicle (in writing)? I feel for Alan, I really do. I just think getting arrested should be the last step.

For the record, I am almost completely deaf after a bad accident 6 years ago. I have to wear two hearing aids since I'm 42 and am legally partially disabled as a result. Every day I get the "What?" joke from somebody when I tell them that I am deaf and can't hear them. I am not comparing my situation to anyone, I'm just saying that discrimination is a really bad thing, and I take it very seriously.

Tim

[Tarkus]

Tim,

Everything is in writing.

I'm not a "Newbie" at this I know what we are up against.
They, like others have will relent.

As far as Simons "legal dept" they know they are in violation. Just as Disney does.

Before I would ever suggest a thing like this I try all reasonable avenues. conversation, education & persuasion.

In this case in most Simon properties the problem still exist so I will keep up the fight.

By the way, you know those little sidewalk cutouts Seggers love so much, they came from people like me and others that fought the ADA battle prior to 1990.

Regards,
Alan

[driley]

Originally Posted by Timezkware Tim

My wife told me once that there's an old German saying that goes something like, "When two people are having an arguement, the first one that shouts, loses". You may think that you're making a statement to help a cause, but if the common perception is that you are a troublemaker, then you are a troublemaker. Then all Seggers are troublemakers. Disabled or not, you represent all of us everytime you're on your rig in public.

When somone commits civil disobedience over young people dying in a war, that's one thing. You're planning to inconvenience several security people and Police, and disrupt the working and shopping day for others getting arrested over a Segway. You and other disabled people may benefit from Segways, but last time I checked they're not wheelchairs.

The mall is a private business. If you buy a ticket to the pokey, you will only hurt the cause to have Segways accepted in society, IMO. They have the right to say no. It's their private place of business.

As I said, perception is reality, and once you do this, it can't be undone. Think about it. There are more efficient ways to further a cause.

If Simon Co. is breaking the law and discriminating somehow, maybe I'm totally misinformed as far as the law goes where you are. I still think getting yourself arrested should be reserved for saving the lives of people or even animals. A Segway in a store? You won't get much sympathy. People will say, "Get a wheelchair if you're disabled".

JMHO. Hope you make the right decision. Good luck.

Tim

Tim,

I don't know what to say. I am offended by your lack of sensitivity. For many people, a Segway is much more than a new form of transportation. It is essentially their legs. A modern miracle of science. An invention that allows them the freedom to do things and go places that the able bodied take for granted.

Maybe when you first saw a Segway, you thought, neat, I want one. Many of us saw it and knew and hoped it could be life changing. We saw a device that would allow us to go places that were otherwise very difficult to go. Such as malls or amusement parks. Or grant us the ability to "stroll" our parks and neighborhoods or "walk" with friends and families.

Your attitude is discriminatory and this type of attitude has the potential to step all over my civil rights. Thankfully, laws were established to protect the disabled from this type of thinking.

Hopefully you will never have to walk a mile in the shoes of those who depend on a Segway for true mobility assistance. If you do, your perspective will change, in a hurry. Hopefully you can think about that and be more empathetic to the situation of others.

Devin

[Sal]

Lets everyone go easy on Tim. Frankly, I don't think Tim was being discriminatory at all. I think he was trying to play devil's advocate / expressing his opinion based on what he knew at the time. No one can / or should blame him for that.

-Sal

P.S. Disability is a sensitive subject, maybe as sensitive as race relations. But it's even more subtle, as many folks with disabilities aren't "recognized as such," and they shouldn't be, and shouldn't have to be made to announce it. I don't know and will never truly know what it is like to be disabled, just like others can't know what it's like to be a minority.

[gbrandwood]

Alan, not that you in any way need my support in this matter, but I would just like to wish you the best in your endevours. Sometimes writing letters and talking to people on the shop floor will only get you so far. Go for it! The publicity it generates would almost certainly cause the Mall owners to take note - and hopefully appropriate action.

[Sven]

[QUOTE=Sal;129790]I do applaud Alan for standing up for what he believes in. If I were in his position, I don't know if I would have the cajones or tenacity to do the same thing (it all depends on how much the situation offends me). We all know that Tarkus doesn't give "the Mouse" any money, again, it all depends on how much the issue affects the person.


Only acting on matters such as this if it affects us personally is akin to burying one's head in the sand. It breeds thinking such as "as long as there is food on my plate, world hunger is not a problem for me." Discrimination against the disabled is wrong and I would hope everyone, disabled and abled alike, would stand up against such practices. Alan is standing up for what is right here and no amount of "devil advocacy" can detract from that reality.

Sven

[Tarkus]

Originally Posted by Sal

Lets everyone go easy on Tim. Frankly, I don't think Tim was being discriminatory at all. I think he was trying to play devil's advocate / expressing his opinion based on what he knew at the time. No one can / or should blame him for that.

-Sal

P.S. Disability is a sensitive subject, maybe as sensitive as race relations. But it's even more subtle, as many folks with disabilities aren't "recognized as such," and they shouldn't be, and shouldn't have to be made to announce it. I don't know and will never truly know what it is like to be disabled, just like others can't know what it's like to be a minority.

Sal,

No question about it, Tim was in no way trying to be discriminatory here. Just a little misinformed.

I've read enough of his stuff to know he's not that type of guy.

Maybe some would find those types of comments insensitive, but thats a personal matter. My hide is like that of my Avatar! Others maybe not.

But the misinformation is a real problem for Seggers of all body types !

If we wanted to get right down to original point of the HT very few are being used for that purpose, human transportation.

I'm talking commuting, shopping etc. the "original" concept. But as with many things the use of the product went in many directions.

One of those being used as a mobility aid.

I do always find it interesting that this "issue" brings out the "what does INC say about it" argument. That answer is right on their site if you look real close.

We don't ask that about towing things, riding two up, making it go faster, no hands, polo.......you know what INC's answer is to that also. Not to mention the helmet.

Why is that?

Regards,
Alan

PS-the original concept would have been to hit as many stores in as many locations as possible on the same day. I backed off that for a while when it appeared that I would get some sort response that showed any interest in the matter.