Fuel Cell???

[cruiter]

We could nationalize our oil, or maybe should 'cause certain folks high in their penthouse condo's on FL's western shores cried loud when FL wanted to put up off shore rigs, Why they would ruin the sky line don't you know!!! Well guess what, Cuba leased fields right next to ours to China. Now those folks in their condo's will see China's rigs and for that sight, they'll have to buy their oil from the folks that are now selling us crawfish.

Originally Posted by pam

I think Russia has just sc**wed Shell Oil to the wall in the Russian oil fields, according to the Guardian.

The problem, that I see, with continuing to buy our oil from people who hate us, is that ultimately, they get to call the shots. And I guess that when the PTB in both the oil industry (oh, it's so much cheaper to buy, we get a better return for our investment) and the guvmt (who seems to think that business will trump nationalism - idealistic IMHO) figure it out, some changes will be made. All it will take is a couple more countries nationalizing their oil and demand exceeding supply (which is about to happen big time with China onboard as a large oil user).

Pam

[cruiter]

Canada IS the largest and only in the last few years have they started mining and refining the stuff. I think NG did a program on them recently. But we have plenty if we started digging and refining. You know if the US and Canada got together and nationalized all of our oil, (why not, Chaves did it) we could tell the oil cartel where to get off. The very threat of losing us as a customer would crash the price of a barrel probably back to about $20 and put the cartel out of buisness. The only thing that keeps them going is threats to the consumers. Iran wouldn't have enough of our money to pay Russia for all the nuclear support their enjoying. They'd have to go back to fine carpet making and hammering copper pots. Peaceful activities!!!

And if we nationalized the oil, our taxes would go down even more, and they (UNCLE SAM) could save Social Security. If not all of your kids are going to have to go to work sooner to pay my S/S .

Gawd I hate what we're doing to ourselves by just coasting along and not taking real action to survive into the future. Now I've gone and curled my toe nails again

Originally Posted by KSagal

Energy independence? That is silly. We should keep buying from those who state regularly that they think we are the great satan, and by giving them all this money, it pays for the propaganda machine that keeps them recruiting more people to hate us!

I agree that we not only should develope this resourse, but have to for the survival of our culture.

However, I was under the impression that Canada actually has the largest reserves of this type of oil on the globe.

I agree with the premise, but believe that many would call it nationalistic, and not politically correct...

[Desert_Seg]

Damn pesky facts keep getting in the way again:

Just to clarify, we don't buy any petroleum-based crude oil from Iran (or pretty much anything else, for that matter). Iran is also one of the biggest exporters of fruits and nuts and have a very strong industry in both oil refining and vegetable oil refining. The VO refinining business is HUGE. And yes, they do make some gorgeous carpets, which tend to cost me way too much money each year.

Saudi Arabia is not our number one source of oil...in fact, they aren't even number two. Yep, you guessed it, they are number three and we only buy about 12.75% from them. (FYI, as a nation they don't see us as the Great Satan, although some of their populace to (just as our government doesn't see the Kingdom as a Satan although many of our populace do))

We do buy another 12% or so from Venezuela, putting them number four on the list. The Venezuelan government does see us as the Great Satanic Nation with the Satan to end all Satan's at our helm. Of course, he of Satanic communication (Chavez) sure does love it when we buy his oil and his country would surely collapse if we stopped.

Want to guess who is number 1 and 2 in supplying us oil? Well you might be surprised and I'll tell you at the end of this missive.

As for oil shale, it is still much more expensive to produce than petroleum-based crude, primarily because of mining costs and then the added costs of extraction from the shale. In fact, Mother Nature came up with the best way to get the oil out of oil shale....she waited a long long time and used pressure and heat. Oil shale is the "precursor" of sorts for petroleum-based oil.

A viable oil-shale industry is at least 15 years off, and likely more but that doesn't mean that there isn't a lot of money being spent on trying to get to this resource. Yes, they have successfully established an oil-shale extraction business in Canada but that doesn't they are making money at it!

The retort process (which is the process used to get the oil out of shale) is not only expensive but also extremely damaging to the environment. This has led to all kinds of other issues. I know that Shell has developed an process where they "liquefy" the shale in ground. If this process works then oil-shale recovery prices also go down and environmentalists are happier.

We (the US) have more oil shale than Canada....much more. In fact, in the tri-state area of Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming alone there is more oil-shale than in all of Canada. Furthermore, current estimates are that oil-shale deposits in the US alone dwarf the stated oil reserves of Saudi Arabia by at least 4 to 1, or enough oil to meet our demands for about 100 years.

So, yes we need to spend more time trying to get at our oil shale reserves but this isn't an overnight thing. In fact, Canada and Mexico are going to get much richer over the next 15 years as they are, and will likely continue to be, our number 1 and 2 suppliers of oil, accounting for a combined total in excess of 31% (and rising).

So, next time you go to the pump and start swearing at the Middle East....don't. It isn't just them. Our neighbors to the North and South, as well as other countries including the Virgin Islands (huh?) are getting rich off of our excesses! But in a capitalistic environment who can blame them?

Not me!!!!

Steven

[falves]

Water!

Who needs fuel cells or oil if this technology pans out:



Web Site

-Fernando

[bystander]

Originally Posted by falves

Water!

Who needs fuel cells or oil if this technology pans out:



Web Site

-Fernando

By displacing most of the Nitrogen (with this HHO gas) from the combustion gasses before ignition in an internal combustion engine, many nasty pollutants are avoided, such as oxides of Nitrogen.

Only problem is, it takes power to crack water into HHO gas.

I can see it being practical if pollution must be avoided, but there are costs involved. You end up having to trade off some of your mpg to produce the gas. The major benefit is that harmful emissions are reduced.

If you neglect the cost of the air pollution to be cleaned up afterwards, plain internal combustion (in the presence of Nitrogen) is cheaper. If you want to avoid the pollution problem in the first place, something like this is the way to go. Problem is, getting folks to pay for it, since they're not used to paying extra to be "clean".

Comparative costs of this HHO gas additive system may make it harder for fuel cell systems to become established, as at this point in time, present fuel cell systems are more complicated and expensive.

One reason fuel cells are attractive is the power conversion efficiency. Many automobile owners may be surprised to hear that only around 25% of the "energy" of gasoline is applied to the road, the rest lost as waste heat when used in a typical internal combustion engine. If the same oil that was used to make the gasoline was consumed in a large power plant instead, around 60% gets into the power grid, and 40% lost as waste heat. Combined with around an additional 10% transmission loss (from powerplant to vehicle's batteries through a charger), electric vehicles can be around 50% "efficient" overall, a 100% increase over typical internal combustion engine vehicles.

Fuel cells attempt even higher conversion efficiency than 60%. The kinda have to, otherwise their high costs would make them completely impractical.

Another item that retards development of more efficient petroleum consumption is supply and demand. If a technology that started consuming gasoline at significantly better efficiency than 25% became widely adopted, demand would drop enough that may folks presently in the oil business would become very unhappy.

Sometimes I ponder if the "price of gas" we pay is the result of a finely balanced mechanism, dynamically balanced to keep both the demand and price up to a levels that perpetuate the situation. When a potential new supply of oil is discovered, or a more efficient means of consuming it occurs, it seems like something happens that destabilizes the political landscape and keeps the price up. On the other hand, the high price motivates folks to discover oil in new places and find ways of converting it more efficiently.

[cruiter]

Today in Jan '07 issue of Car & Driver they featured a mini-cooper someone had removed the engine and transmission from in Britton and placed 4 PML electric motors into the wheel hubs with a 250cc twin 4-stroke to recharge the 300-volt lithim polymer battery pack.
I'd like to drive the 640HP mini and see how many miles I could make the tires last
See link http://www.caranddriver.com/carnews/...ni-cooper.html

Originally Posted by falves

Water!

Who needs fuel cells or oil if this technology pans out:



Web Site

-Fernando

[drmarty]

Hmm, I agree that the oil shale is in the west, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico. But I thought what Canada does have is a different form like oil mixed in sand or dirt/mud. And I thought there is a huge amount of it. Same problems tho.

Steven,
Is this the same stuff you meant when you said Canada doesn't have as much as we do?

They were playing with oil shale on the Wyo/Colo border south of Cheyenne when I was in school. That wasn't very recent.

But me I want that HHO crap. Then I can have a Segway with a big flame coming out the back.

A fuel cell Seg makes some sense. No it is not the cheapest technology. But neither is a Segway. So let's all got to the Fuel Cell Store:

http://www.fuelcellstore.com/

Marty