Situation in Israel

[GyroGo]

Pacifism will not solve this problem.

Able bodied young American men came to Valley Forge without shoes and at great sacrifice to themselves and their families basic needs. They did this without regard of food, shelter, warmth, or Maslow. They bravely and heroically gave their limbs and lives for the greater societal good, for the future, FOR US. And their families sacrificed plenty as well.

I don't know that I am cut of the same cloth as these great patriots, but it is character that separates those who act from those with excuses.

Those who fail to act do so at their own peril.

We can sit in our cozy living room armchairs and criticize violence and advocate pacifism, but that is a gift of luxury that was unselfishly given to us by those before us with great character who bravely gave their lives for the principles we cherish dearly.

[Desert_Seg]

Originally Posted by pam

I think, though, that he's hoping that if the Jewish keep attacking Lebanon, then the population will get angry with the Jews for ruining the infrastructure and he'll come out OK.

Small point I'd like to make. It isn't the Jews that are attacking Lebanon, it is the Israelis. Although Israel is predominantly made up of people who follow the Jewish faith, there are also people of Muslim, Hindu, and Christian faiths who live in Israel. I know of at least one Christian who serves in their military and my guess is there are others of varying faiths..

This is NOT an ideological battle. Not one small bit.

Steven

[pam]

Admitted, Steve. Although I'm trying to recall if the Lebanese think of them as Israelis or as Jews.

I'm thinking that I probably picked up the terminology because it's the one that was being used over there - or maybe being used on some of our mainstream media over here. I'll have to listen more carefully to the news tonight.

I know when we were in Chicago at the first SegFest, there was a huge Muslim meeting in the hotel at the same time, and I remember hearing at that time some of the Muslim attendees who came over to see all the Segways and hearing a couple of them talk about "the man who invented these, he was a Jew" with a distainful tone to their voice. TBH, I hadn't thought of Dean Kamen any way other than an extraordinarily gifted human being.

I'm guessing, there are people who will make this an ideological battle, regardless.

Pam

[ZoliHonig]

Originally Posted by Desert_Seg

Small point I'd like to make. It isn't the Jews that are attacking Lebanon, it is the Israelis. Although Israel is predominantly made up of people who follow the Jewish faith, there are also people of Muslim, Hindu, and Christian faiths who live in Israel. I know of at least one Christian who serves in their military and my guess is there are others of varying faiths..

This is NOT an ideological battle. Not one small bit.

Steven

I disagree.... I'm not an Israeli. I'm a Jew. If I walked down the street in Gaza or Lebanon i would be killed even if I wasn't an american.

This whole terrorist movement is based on jihad... holy war... that's pretty idealogical and religious sounding to me.

Even before Israel was estaplished, when Jews were living in British owned Palestine or Turkey owned Palestine before it, our Arab cousins would attack us too... even without being "israelis."

[KSagal]

Originally Posted by pam

You know, Karl, if you'd quit calling people names, based on your own ideological bent, you might find that they agree with you.

I'm simply stating what is (people who suffer depredations tend to seek to have those needs met and will support those who help them get their daily needs met, which may be one reason why the Lebonese have allowed the Hezbollah to operate within their borders), I'm not saying that Hezbollah is a "good" organization. Nor do I believe this to be a "good" war.

I am not in a position to legitimize them or not. Discussing what they have done which has contributed to the situation at hand does not legitimize them.

Cheap shots at "liberals" or "progressives" are not necessary nor appreciated.

Pam

You know Pam, I really was not trying to make a cheap shot. I call myself a conservative when I am talking about politics. I call myself a libertarian when I am talking about social issues. I do not consider them derogatory. When I do call some one a liberal, it is not intended as a slam. It is a value system. It did not occur to me that someone who is a liberal would consider it an insult to be called that. The same goes for progressives, especially since I even said that the people I was talking about were self proclaimed progressives...

I am sorry that you find what I say so offensive. I really am being honest, and was not trying to cause problems. I also see it interesting that you took offense to being called a liberal, yet did not feel compelled to defend the Hezbollah, whom I called beasts...

I happen to be a naturalist. I have seen mother bears, who are clearly beasts, defend their cubs against impossible odds, even sacrifice their own lives to defend them... That a being is a beast does not mean they are without honor.

I do not hold the Hezbollah in such high regard. I find those who feel that their way is better over the dead bodies of children, have no place on this earth. I know this is my own value system. I also know that I volunteered and joined the American Army, and am proud of the service I gave to my country.

If the Hezbollah had missles aimed at my home in Massachusetts, I would take my old fat body and join again. As is, I have nothing but respect for those who would rout the world of people who employ the tactics that they do...

I am sure that this makes me something less in some people's eyes.

My earlier and not appreciated comment was not intended to incite, but to indicate that clearly I believe that if radical groups like the Hezbollah are successful at their tasks, they would have more respect for conservative infidels like me, than progressive infidels like some others... That would not matter. They would feel like failures if they did not kill us both, and our children as well.

We do not have to agree to much to realize that there are those who see us as the same and that we are their enemy, even though they do not know us, nor want to.

I go back to the conclusion that I came to last time. No negative is absolutely negative, nor positive absoulutely positive. No warring parties will seek peace, if they do not both want it. Hezbollah believes their only path lies in the death of all jews. (and others they do not like) and they are willing to stop at nothing to accomplish that. They will kill innocent babies, and sacrifice their own to make it happen.

I know it is my own value system, but as an honest man, I will say that is my definition of evil on earth.

Do I think that those in hezbollah think of themselves as evil? I suspect that they do not. They are so busy hating jews that I do not think they are very introspective. At this moment, I do not feel compelled to care if they are introspective or not, they are driven by blind rage that needs to be quelled. I choose not to accept that their way of life has any place in my way of life, much as my way of life has no place in theirs. The difference is that I have no desire to kill them because of it, and they do have the desire to kill me because of it...

I am done dancing on eggs. I speak how I feel and you feel differently. so be it. You are the moderator. do as you feel compelled...

[Desert_Seg]

Originally Posted by ZoliHonig

I disagree.... I'm not an Israeli. I'm a Jew. If I walked down the street in Gaza or Lebanon i would be killed even if I wasn't an american.

This whole terrorist movement is based on jihad... holy war... that's pretty idealogical and religious sounding to me.

Even before Israel was estaplished, when Jews were living in British owned Palestine or Turkey owned Palestine before it, our Arab cousins would attack us too... even without being "israelis."

Zoli,

You miss my point. Too many people want to make this a war of Muslim against Jew, when it isn't.

This is a battle of the Hezbollah against the Israeli "occupation" of what they consider their land. After all, they bombed Nazareth thre nights ago, a city that is predominantly Israeli Muslim (by predominantly I mean over 80%). Why, to scare the people

Hezbollah wants to make this a Jewish - Muslim battle. It helps them immensely as it polarizes the two sides and brings more support for them. It's all about shock and awe.

I agree, you could easily be killed walking down the streets of Haifa, just as I and my family were almost killed going to that mall in Tel Aviv. But even though the suicide bomber was Palestinian Muslim, I do not blame the Muslims, nor even the Palestinians, for our near death.

All I want is that we face reality and it's easy to see my point. I hate "what ifs" but it fits here....ask yourself

"If all entire Jewish population in Israel converted to Catholicism, would the jihad stop?

- If the answer is yes than this is an ideological war.
- If the answer is no than this is nothing more than a land grab

For me the answer is no....

Steven

[pam]

Actually, Karl, with the exception of your characterization of liberals and progressives, which has been fairly dismissive and negative in the past, and continues to insinuate positions that are not necessarily held, you might be surprised to hear that I basically have the same position on Hezbollah that you have. I hate killing, yes, but I understand why/that it happens. Why on earth would I defend the Hezbollah? I don't know a single one of my liberal friends who do, either.

Pam

[Buckaroo Banzai]

You didn't know that "liberals" want the terrorists to win and our
soldiers to die?

That's what I keep hearing on FOX. Must be true.

Oy vey.

[GyroGo]

Originally Posted by Desert_Seg

"If all entire Jewish population in Israel converted to Catholicism, would the jihad stop?

- If the answer is yes than this is an ideological war.
- If the answer is no than this is nothing more than a land grab

For me the answer is no....

Hezbollah would not accept Christian infidels controlling Israel, either. But if all the Jews and Christians in Israel suddenly became Muslims, all the non-Palestinian members of Hezbollah would go back home to their Muslim countries and rejoyce.

[GyroGo]

Originally Posted by pam

Why on earth would I defend the Hezbollah?

Pam, I don't think you defend Hezbollah, but you are soft on those who give at least tacit support to Hezbollah. I think it is your kind and forgiving nature to allow rationalization for their behavior. Maslow, human psychology, sociology, and understanding people's motivations all take a back seat to the the necessity to eliminate a very dangerous condition.