SegwayChat
Home . Photos . Old Gallery

Go Back   SegwayChat > Other Topics > Science and Technology

Notices

Science and Technology Science & technology discussions not related to the Segway. This includes discussion of Segway knockoffs and clones.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-15-2014, 09:34 PM   #11
Cybercat
Junior Member
Cybercat is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 71
5 yr Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
AND, it is my right, my freedom, and my privilege to choose for myself what I will wear on my head and elsewhere. I will not let you lead me ignorantly into thinking it is your right to choose that for me.
Well, technically speaking, society makes such choices for us on a daily basis. Try walking around naked, and see what happens. As a society, we make rules all the time that tell us what we can and can't do, including what we can and can't wear. Some rules have to do with societal norms (nudity is a no-no), and others have to do with potential costs to society. When you choose not to wear your helmet, you put yourself at greater risk. And if you do have an accident, there can be huge costs to society - ambulance, medical costs, disability payments, etc., etc., etc. So society says we need to prevent such things by passing laws.

And those laws affect everything we do every single day. Wear your seat belt. No U turn. Warnings on cigarettes. No driving under the influence. No jaywalking. You name it. These are things that put you at risk, so society prohibits, requires, or regulates them.

So, should the use of a helmet be one of the things regulated? Reasonable minds differ. Personally, I think someone has to be crazy not to use one, but I can respect a different opinion.

As long as the person is consistent, that is. Generally I find, tho, that a lot of people who get up in arms about society telling them what to do are the very same people who are the most vocal supporters of regulations to tell others how to lead their lives. I can respect anyone's opinion, so long as they're consistent. I don't have a lot of respect for hypocrites, tho, and this world seems to be filled with them. (And just to be clear, I am not accusing you of that, because I don't know you - just a statement of my philosophy in general.)

Last edited by Cybercat; 04-15-2014 at 11:30 PM..
Cybercat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2014, 11:56 PM   #12
Bob.Kerns
Advanced Member
Bob.Kerns is a glorious beacon of lightBob.Kerns is a glorious beacon of lightBob.Kerns is a glorious beacon of lightBob.Kerns is a glorious beacon of lightBob.Kerns is a glorious beacon of lightBob.Kerns is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Marin County, CA
Posts: 3,783
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cybercat View Post
Well, technically speaking, society makes such choices for us on a daily basis. Try walking around naked, and see what happens.
It depends, on context, age, and gender.

Until recently, nudity was legal in San Francisco. In fact, until I looked for links, I didn't know a ban had been passed. You only need a very small amount of cover, though, to be legal.

And in NYC, going topless is also legal.

People tend to over-estimate how much of the prohibition against nudity is legal, vs social. In most situations, the social aspect has far more impact on people's behavior; the legal hardly enters into it.
__________________
Bob Kerns:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Obviously, we can't have infinite voltage, or the universe would tear itself to shreds, and we wouldn't be discussing Segways.
Bob.Kerns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2014, 12:00 AM   #13
KSagal
Glides a lot, talks more...
KSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud of
 
KSagal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wilmington, MA, USA.
Posts: 10,352
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner SegwayFest Attendee
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cybercat View Post
Well, technically speaking, society makes such choices for us on a daily basis. Try walking around naked, and see what happens. As a society, we make rules all the time that tell us what we can and can't do, including what we can and can't wear. Some have to do with societal norms (nudity is a no-no), and others have to do with potential costs to society. When you choose not to wear your helmet, you put yourself at greater risk. And if you do have an accident, there can be huge costs to society - ambulance, medical costs, disability payments, etc., etc., etc. So society says we need laws to prevent such things by passing laws.

And those laws affect everything we do every single day. Wear your seat belt. No U turn. Warnings on cigarettes. No driving under the influence. No jaywalking. You name it. These are things that put you at risk, so society prohibits, requires, or regulates them.

So, should the use of a helmet be one of the things regulated? Reasonable minds differ. Personally, I think someone has to be crazy not to use one, but I can respect a different opinion.

As long as the person is consistent, that is. Generally I find, tho, that a lot of people who get up in arms about society telling them what to do are the very same people who are the most vocal supporters of regulations to tell others how to lead their lives. I can respect anyone's opinion, so long as they're consistent. I don't have a lot of respect for hypocrites, tho, and this world seems to be filled with them. (And just to be clear, I am not accusing you of that, because I don't know you - just a statement of my philosophy in general.)
You make a good point and I mostly agree, but there are plenty of places where the society makes different rules. There are states without seat belt laws or motorcycle helmet laws, and even places where public nudity is not prohibited. So, society is not consistent itself.

But my comment was not about society at large, but to one poster who constantly rails on and on about wearing helmets on segways, and seems to respond aggressively to my posted choice to allow people to wear them or not as they see fit. He has posted several conflicting statements about it, but is clear that he feels we should wear helmets, and not to do so is foolish.

I used his exact words of rights, privileges, and freedom and choice were not mine to decide if I should wear a helmet or not. Of course they are, relative to him trying to deny me that choice.

Bear in mind also, there are reasonable studies that have determined that motor cycle helmets do reduce injuries, are that seat belts reduce injuries in car accidents. I do not know of any reasonable studies that examine if helmets actually reduce injuries on segways...

Keep in mind that speeds on segways are far slower on average than on any of the other conveyances discussed in either of our postings.

By law, a person on a segway in most instances is a pedestrian. (sometimes treated like a person on a bike, but while on sidewalks, clearly a pedestrian)

Now, if we look at pedestrians who travel on sidewalks like segways, and we acknowledge that they are traveling a bit faster than other pedestrians, then I have to ask, do you feel it appropriate to require joggers to wear helmets?

I suspect that joggers must fall sometimes. I further suggest that if they do, and land on their heads, them potentially a helmet may reduce that particular injury...

So in that case, a helmet may help, but the concept of 'Requiring' all joggers to wear them would have such a minor impact on any positive injury results that it is a silly rule.

I believe that helmets on segways fall into the same category as helmets on joggers.

Furthermore, I believe there is a negative safety aspect to helmets, as they have the potential to be hot, and can impact the ability to move the head, and to have peripheral vision. So, the potential discomfort and reduction of safety, while small, seems to exist for me, which will further diminish the positive effect of requiring joggers and segway operators to use helmets...

Since many people use them as mobility aides, do you suggest that people use helmets in that environment as well? How about people in wheel chairs? Surely, somewhere sometime, someone has fallen out of a wheelchair. Did they hit their head? Should they wear helmets? Where do you draw that line?

And there you have it all. Reasonable assumption, but no reasonable science to the value of wearing a helmet on a segway, coupled with no laws that compel them, leave me with my opinion about them...

I most often do not use one. I sometimes do, when in certain road or off road situations. I also resist people telling me to wear one, but I do not and have never advocated people should not wear one either. I believe people should do what they want. (Except my children, whom I require to wear a helmet when on my segway)

One last point. I consider myself a segway advocate. People have often expressed trepidation as the difficulty of riding a segway. I believe that many feel they are harder than they actually are. If the general public that is unfamiliar with riding segways see only riders in helmets, they may feel that they are actually harder to ride than they are...
__________________
Karl Ian Sagal

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin)
Bene factum melior bene dictum

Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.
KSagal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2014, 11:11 PM   #14
bob yarbrough
Member
bob yarbrough has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 
bob yarbrough's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: mechanicsville, va
Posts: 165
5 yr Member
Wink

<<<
I used his exact words of rights, privileges, and freedom and choice were not mine to decide if I should wear a helmet or not. Of course they are, relative to him trying to deny me that choice.
>>>



I'm sorry if Karl feels as if I'm trying to pick on him. I'm sorry Karl feels that people (or am I the only one he feels this way about, I'm not quiet sure) are telling him to wear a helmet.

I have said repeatedly I do not have a problem with those who choose not to wear a helmet as I myself glided for several years without wearing a helmet myself.

We do however seem to disagree when it comes to the following point.

I know the act or wearing or not wearing a helmet has NOTHING to do with ones rights, ones freedoms or ones privileges. It has only to do with exercising common sense...plain and simple. That is what I believe.


be safe,
enjoy your glide...

Bob Yarbrough
the PONY SEAT guy
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
the PONY SEAT
bob yarbrough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2014, 03:29 AM   #15
jgbackes
Senior Member
jgbackes is a jewel in the roughjgbackes is a jewel in the roughjgbackes is a jewel in the roughjgbackes is a jewel in the rough
 
jgbackes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: San Jose, CA - USA
Posts: 1,314
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner Segway Polo Player SegwayFest Attendee
Default

I disagree with most people on most subjects...

If society has to bear the cost of people doing dangerous things, I guess that's the cost of being in the society. If I don't like people doing dangerous things I can move to where everyone is careful about everything or... I can get over it.

There are costs to society if you are not a responsible person. If you throw a lit cigarette out the window of your car, most of the time it just litters the highway, sometimes however it causes a fire.

There is no way that you can prove that your actions might not in some way effect society. If you kill yourself, perhaps your children will receive survivor benefits and society as a whole pays for that. If you maim yourself your insurance, life savings, something has to pay. Perhaps you will become a vegetable and require years of intensive care. Society will have to pay for that. Perhaps you are one month away from thinking the greatest thought ever thought. But instead you decide to go skydiving without a reserve shoot and ... opps. Society will never get the benefit of that great thought you never got to think.

I don't want people to change I want them to admit that their behavior does have an effect on everyone in the society.

Now, stop reading this, go outside and enjoy the fresh air

jeff
__________________
sǝʞɔɐq ɟɟǝɾ

If I had known I was going to live this long, I would have taken better care of myself.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jgbackes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 05:29 PM   #16
bob yarbrough
Member
bob yarbrough has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 
bob yarbrough's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: mechanicsville, va
Posts: 165
5 yr Member
Default

Hopefully we have all gotten some fresh air and enjoyed these last few days. So....


>>>
Of course they are, relative to him trying to deny me that choice.
===



Many other members have used the words right, freedom and privilege long before I ever made used of these terms. And
reject the idea or not ones rights, ones freedoms and ones privileges (IMHO) should not have any bearing in ones decision making process to exercise good common sense in the use of a helmet when ascendsing a Segway.

IF there are studies on cars, motorcycles, bicycles, skateboards, joggers and even pedestrians, WHY does one need a specific study tied to the Segway? Should we get a study for the kiddies tricycles also?

It's very simple...in the event of an accident you do not get to CHOOSE. You do not get to choose what kind of accident occurs, when that accident may happen and certainly not the severity of injuries.

I do know that a selfish child may often times feel they are being denied something. I also know, despite Karls protest, that it is about making a common sense decision only.


As for Karls assertion of the Segway being a slow conveyance, and for some clarity of what I've actually said...
check the following links.

link 1.
"some helpful tips"



link 2.
check out the last 30 seconds of this clip




be safe
enjoy your glide...

Bob Yarbrough
the PONY SEAT guy
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
the PONY SEAT
bob yarbrough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 06:44 PM   #17
KSagal
Glides a lot, talks more...
KSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud of
 
KSagal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wilmington, MA, USA.
Posts: 10,352
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner SegwayFest Attendee
Default

Bob,

You are entirely welcome to your opinions, and you are welcome to tell other people about them. I did watch a bit of your slideshow, and made the following notes. (the second link did not work for me) I find that several of your comments are unsupported by facts.

1. "Always wear a helmet. "
1a. "It is required in some localities." (Where? I know of none where adults are required by law to wear a helmet.) Do you know of any places where adults are required to wear helmets on segways?

1b. "Faster your speed… 10 – 12 mph on a segway may feel like 40-50 in a car… "
Really? This is totally subjective. Sometime, my 13.5 mph on my segway feels so slow, I think I could get off and run faster. Which I can, but only for a short distance.

At that point however, when I was running, would Bob tell me to wear a helmet, as I pass the segways that he tells people to wear helmets on?

1c. "A helmet is your only real protection against head injury in the event of an accident… "

This is completely false, misleading and can get people hurt.

Your best protection against head injury is to pay attention and not have the accident.

Your next best protection is to act proactively during the accident, and minimize your injury, including protecting your head with your arms and the way you fall.

Depending on your helmet has been proven to be misleading and there have been more head injuries since the introduction of helmets and their widespread acceptance exactly because of the mistake that Bob is making, and that is to depend on them to protect you from serious head injuries instead of using what is in your head (brain) to think your way to safety. This is not so with segways, as there have been no studies that I am aware of, and Bob has likewise offered none. It is so, and documented in studies on other conveyances like bikes, but they are very different, and act very differently.

BUT, helmets do help a bit with lessening scalp abrasions.

1d. "It’s irresponsible of a person to permit anyone to step onto a segway without a helmet securely in position."

TOTALLY subjective. I believe it is irresponsible to offer opinion as if they were prove-able facts, which these are not.

Tip 2. "Mounting a segway is a little like stepping onto the first step of a short somewhat slightly shakey ladder."

Not so. Mounting a segway is exactly like stepping onto a segway. A segway is not somewhat shaky, unless the operator is shaky. When I mount a segway it is solid as a rock, because I do not shake. However, when I mount a shaky ladder, the ladder will shake, as that is how this ladder has been defined.

2a. "The back and forth wobbling that you may experience will disappear shortly."
This is not accurate at all. The wobbling that you may experience is because you are making it wobble. If you stop making it wobble, it will stop. IF YOU DO not stop making it wobble, it will not stop. To say it will stop on its own, is misleading, and indicating that the wobble is not caused by the person, and this is not so. It is entirely caused by the person.


I could go on, but the point is made. These are opinions from the Bob, and I believe he honestly believes them. But honestly believing them does not make them facts.

Also, in Bob's post, he states "It's very simple...in the event of an accident you do not get to CHOOSE. You do not get to choose what kind of accident occurs, when that accident may happen and certainly not the severity of injuries. "

And while it is very much defeatist, it is also simply not so. We all can take responsibility for our lives, or we can tell others that we do not get to choose. OF course we can choose, and many of those choices will make a tremendous difference if we have an accident or not, or how severe those resultant accidents will be.

There are many factors that may not be within your control, but most are. You can choose when to glide defensively, and when to trust that others are doing what they should be doing. You can choose to keep your head on swivel, and pay attention to all the event around you, so that you can see and avoid other people's missteps that could result in an accident that involves you, or you can choose to ignore the world around you.

You can choose to text, or otherwise divert your attention from what you are doing, or choose not to.

And for the record, driving a segway is an act of paying attention to far more than how to control the segway. It is an act of controlling the segway, while interacting with others who may or often may not do what they should be doing in their cars or bikes or sneakers etc...

The same can be said for driving a car. My 14 year old is taller than I, and far stronger than his mother, yet he cannot drive a car, and his mom and I can. This is not because of his ability to manipulate the car, as he can, but because he does not have the maturity, and the attention span required to effectively manipulate that car in a manner that will not endanger himself or others.

Segways are not much different, except by scale.

There are far more important things than just learning to manipulate the segway and wear this piece of armor or that, to being safe on a segway, at least by my opinion. (and I can support that opinion with objective facts)
__________________
Karl Ian Sagal

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin)
Bene factum melior bene dictum

Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.

Last edited by KSagal; 04-24-2014 at 06:53 PM..
KSagal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 07:21 PM   #18
bob yarbrough
Member
bob yarbrough has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 
bob yarbrough's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: mechanicsville, va
Posts: 165
5 yr Member
Default

The very first screen states for

...new owners and beginner Segway users...

Like yourself I'm sure there are many experienced gliders would disagree with the tips...as you did several years back when you cautioned me about the contents of my video. My tips are based on my experiences...god and bad...

You're free to disagree with my opinions but that will not and cannot change my opinions or my experiences upon which the video is based.





Thank you

be safe
enjoy your glide...

Bob Yarbrough
the PONY SEAT guy
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
the PONY SEAT
bob yarbrough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 07:24 PM   #19
bob yarbrough
Member
bob yarbrough has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 
bob yarbrough's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: mechanicsville, va
Posts: 165
5 yr Member
Default

Let's try that again.






http://www.


__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
the PONY SEAT
bob yarbrough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 07:33 PM   #20
bob yarbrough
Member
bob yarbrough has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 
bob yarbrough's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: mechanicsville, va
Posts: 165
5 yr Member
Default

http://www.youtube.com/user/bfrrvideo

If this works?...look for the kid on the Segway
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
the PONY SEAT
bob yarbrough is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:56 PM.
Copyright 2002-2017 SegwayChat.org.
All rights reserved. Not affiliated with Segway Inc.

FreshBlue vBulletin skin by
VayaDesign
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SegwayChat Archive