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Special Needs, Mobility and Disabled Use Information and discussion for those with special needs interested in the Segway.

Old 01-26-2011, 09:58 AM   #1
Lily Kerns
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Default ADA questions for the DOJ

I'm getting ready to call the DOJ help line to see if they are prepared to deal with questions about the new ADA rules regarding OPDMDs (Segs, ATVs, golfcarts...) that go into effect in March.

I would welcome suggestions and ideas for this conversation. The relevant information for Title II is summarized in this link:
http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthr...007#post212007
I will need to do the same for Title III...

Title II, § 35.137 Mobility devices
Section (a) is crystal clear: wheelchairs, mobility scooters and other handicap devices MUST be given pedestrian access; (b) is about as clear as mud.

Here are some of the questions I'd like to ask:

§ 35.130 General prohibitions against discrimination
(h) A public entity may impose legitimate safety requirements necessary for the safe operation of its services, programs, or activities. However, the public entity must ensure that its safety requirements are based on actual risks, not on mere speculation, stereotypes, or generalizations about individuals with disabilities.

What will be the standard for their proof that their rules are based on actual risks? When, where, how must this proof be provided?

In what way is a permit a requirement for safety? If it is claimed that this allows OPDMD users to be informed of the safety requirements, why is it that safety rules for the general public are simply posted or provided and it is assumed that the public will make themselves acquainted with those rules. Isn't this an assumption that disabled users are somehow less responsible or intelligent than other members of the public?



§ 35.137 Mobility devices
(b-1) says "A public entity shall make reasonable modifications in its policies, practices, or procedures to permit the use of other power-driven mobility devices... unless it can demonstrate that the class of other power-driven mobility devices cannot be operated in accordance with legitimate safety requirements that the public entity has adopted pursuant to § 35.130(h).

What is the standard for "permit the use"? Does that mean they can make any regulations they wish as long as they can claim it is safety related or does it mean equal access with other disabled usage? If a doctor has prescribed a Segway as the best solution for a specific disability, then why isn't it discrimination to make different standards for its use (i.e. pedestrian access) than for those for whom "wheelchairs and manually-powered mobility aids, such as walkers, crutches, canes, braces, or other similar devices" are the logical solution for a disability? These devices all have implicit hazards and the user is assumed to be able to deal with them or the doctor would not have prescribed them. Why should the same not be true of medically prescribed Segway use?

What does "demonstrate" mean? What, when, where, how, to whom, by whom must that demonstration be made or offered? What are my options if challenged and the agency or business is unwilling or unable to specify, i.e. demonstrate, why I am being denied or regulated?

Can disabled Segway users be held to higher standards of safety than those that exist for individuals in wheelchairs or the general public? What if the rule is not related to the Segway itself, but to the attitude and skill of the user or the convenience of the agency or business? For example: Our local Simon Mall says that disabled Segway users cannot use a cell phone, cannot ride side by side, must observe manufacturer's recommendations. No one else, disabled or otherwise is restricted in this way. They must also display a permit sticker.

My permits from the MO Department of Conservation says that I cannot use it during deer hunting season in certain areas. Now, no one in their right mind wants to be wandering in the woods during MO deer hunting season, but no one else, disabled or otherwise, is denied access during those times. They too require the dispay of a handicap tag.

Can a speed limit be imposed on Segway users (walking speed, 3 mph) when other devices that can go faster than that have no limits, and there are no limits for runners, strollers, or bicycle speed limits that are rarely, if ever, enforced?

§ 35.137 (2) Inquiry into use of other power-driven mobility device. A public entity may ask a person using an other power-driven mobility device to provide a credible assurance that the mobility device is required because of the person's disability.

Given that an OPDMD user can now be stopped and required to offer some kind of proof of their disability, can they still be required to offer this proof _before_ being given a permit? Can they still be required to _ display_ proof of their disability as a condition for being allowed to use their OPDMD? How is this a safety issue?


I'd welcome suggestions and ideas for more questions. I'd also hope that others will ask these same questions of the DOJ! http://www.justice.gov/contact-us.html
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Old 01-27-2011, 08:58 AM   #2
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Default Deer Hunting

Hi Lilly:

Just an update on one issue you had posted.My permits from the MO Department of Conservation says that I cannot use it during deer hunting season in certain areas. Now, no one in their right mind wants to be wandering in the woods during MO deer hunting season, but no one else, disabled or otherwise, is denied access during those times. They too require the dispay of a handicap tag.


I live in PA and I acutally DO use my segway to go deer hunting. I have a "Disabled Hunter" license which lets me hunt from an electric wheelchair. I have a SegSaddle on my I2 and I use it just like a wheelchair. It lets me go in to a local State Game Land region in about 2 miles and I just post up there. I carry one of those folding chairs on my shoulder and sit when I get to my spot. It actually works quite well as it is very quiet. I got one doe earlier this year. I just phoned for some help to get it out of the woods (so I didn't drag it) I have talked to the PA Game Commission about it and have had no issues at all. I am sure I am very unique in this use; I am very pleased with it and very happy to be able to hunt again, so I just thought I would share. I have never encountered any restrictions on using my Segway to date, best wishes !
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:52 AM   #3
Lily Kerns
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwoynaro View Post
Hi Lilly:

Just an update on one issue you had posted.My permits from the MO Department of Conservation says that I cannot use it during deer hunting season in certain areas. Now, no one in their right mind wants to be wandering in the woods during MO deer hunting season, but no one else, disabled or otherwise, is denied access during those times. They too require the dispay of a handicap tag.


I live in PA and I acutally DO use my segway to go deer hunting. I have a "Disabled Hunter" license which lets me hunt from an electric wheelchair. I have a SegSaddle on my I2 and I use it just like a wheelchair. It lets me go in to a local State Game Land region in about 2 miles and I just post up there. I carry one of those folding chairs on my shoulder and sit when I get to my spot. It actually works quite well as it is very quiet. I got one doe earlier this year. I just phoned for some help to get it out of the woods (so I didn't drag it) I have talked to the PA Game Commission about it and have had no issues at all. I am sure I am very unique in this use; I am very pleased with it and very happy to be able to hunt again, so I just thought I would share. I have never encountered any restrictions on using my Segway to date, best wishes !
Thanks for sharing. I had wondered how you handled the actual shooting. My permits specifically say no shooting from a Segway.

My permits are simply for access to MDC property --one for each site I might want to visit as a pedestrian for permitted purposes as any able-bodied person can do. I do not have a hunting license but probably could get a special use permit for that purpose. They do this for wheelchair users and even allow a truck or ATV to get you where you need to be. In fact, the 8 permits I finally got each came with a special tag for the vehicle I had made it plain I did not need... Their new EPAMD regulations and the permitting access are the result of 2 years of making myself totally obnoxious on the matter. <G> If all I had wanted was to hunt, it would undoubtedly have been a fairly simple matter...

They have also finally partially complied with state EPAMD law and any Segway user can now use the roads and parking lots on MDC property, with a concession to allow access to restrooms. If you are disabled you have to have a permit to go beyond that. If you are not disabled, don't even bother to apply for a permit!

The Interior Department has upheld their right to require a permit for ordinary access and to requiring a new doctor's prescription each year to get a new permit. They carefully ignored the fact that the MDC wanted more than just a simple statement of disability (which is how I read the law) asking for the duration of the disability and requiring a new permit each year even if this was a permanent disability.

It is going to be interesting when Mar 15 comes...and you can bet they know I will renew the battle if necessary. <G> Given the attitude so far, I'm not expecting anything else. Unfortunately the new laws do not differentiate between "wheelchair" use of a Segway (usually an i2) and offroad recreational use of an X2 by either the disabled or non-disabled. That could have simplified the issues that will have to be resolved.
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Old 01-28-2011, 04:19 PM   #4
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No ideas? or suggestions? Surely I missed some issue that will need to be addressed when the new rules go into effect.... <G>
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:35 AM   #5
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I'm just being a realist here.

I would bet that the DOJ is in no way prepared for it's people to have correct information on any of this.

I say this because the DOJ still has problems with questions from the original passage of the ADA in 1990. unfortunately that the way it is. Should it be that way of course not. But government is like time and tide, it waits for no man.

So please don't expect the doors to open and the welcome mats come out on The Ides of March. Most Title II and III entities don't even know the regs have changed.

And so it goes

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Old 02-01-2011, 06:15 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarkus View Post
I'm just being a realist here.

I would bet that the DOJ is in no way prepared for it's people to have correct information on any of this.

I say this because the DOJ still has problems with questions from the original passage of the ADA in 1990. unfortunately that the way it is. Should it be that way of course not. But government is like time and tide, it waits for no man.

So please don't expect the doors to open and the welcome mats come out on The Ides of March. Most Title II and III entities don't even know the regs have changed.

And so it goes

Be Big,
AMAC

Which is exactly why I'd like to ask the questions! At least they might get a glimpse of what they need to be thinking about and preparing for. For whatever good it might do.

I've said since I first read the new rules, that I didn't think much would change until we have a bunch of lawsuits...

I had an interesting conversation yesterday. There was a Hoveround serviceman here at the retirement community where I live, so I stopped him (on my Seg <G>) to ask him if he was aware that the Missouri Department of Conservation has classified their product as EPAMDs and are regulating them as such... The permits and 3 mph speed limit really raised his eyebrows. It was all news to him, but he made note of the matter.

His curiosity about the segway was hilarious, so I sent him to the DRAFT site...
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:50 AM   #7
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Good for you lily.
Go getem !

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Old 02-02-2011, 01:27 PM   #8
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UPDATE:

Well I talked to someone at the DOJ with about the results I expected.... and the conversation was cut short--another committment....

I made note of only 2 sentences of any kind of import.

"If it requires more work on the part of the disabled" then it is discrimination.
"No, they cannot require you to display a permit." Now I'm not quite sure whether this refers to present or future rules.

It sounds like permits will still be allowed--but ignored my questions about how this is a safety issue. She seemed to think that speed limits for Segways can be required but, again, didn't address my question about why this should not be considered discriminatory unless it is a specific safety issue...

My questions about the how, etc they will be held to account for the rules they make--"these are addressed on an individual basis."

Oh yes, she also said to ask these questions after March 15--"the situation may have changed by then." Since she didn't even know whether the new rules took effect in Mar of 2011 or 2012....

Obviously they are not prepared to deal with these questions!

Advice for anyone asking this kind of questions--ask only one question each time you call!

Lily
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