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Old 03-22-2012, 07:53 PM   #21
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There was a time, not too long ago, when I thought unions might have outlived their usefulness. Relatively enlightened, civilized management and relatively benign government might have made them obsolete.

Now I think unions are on the edge of the largest resurgence in my lifetime. Governments (state, mostly, at the moment) are simply being bought outright by really big corporate money, and are passing laws designed to push the middle class closer to the bottom, and make sure everyone that is there, stays there. Coupled with the state of the economy, this is the recipe for a new awakening to the reasons unions came to exist in the first place.

"Union bosses", in the way in was meant, are not optimal, but not all unions have those cushy jobs with lack of accountability. It might be useful to learn a little bit about what working life was like before there were unions, and the benefits that unions brought to all of us.

I can say this: If I worked at Wal-Mart, I'd likely be better compensated and happier if I had union representation, "union bosses" and all.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:15 PM   #22
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There was a time, not too long ago, when I thought unions might have outlived their usefulness. Relatively enlightened, civilized management and relatively benign government might have made them obsolete.

Now I think unions are on the edge of the largest resurgence in my lifetime. Governments (state, mostly, at the moment) are simply being bought outright by really big corporate money, and are passing laws designed to push the middle class closer to the bottom, and make sure everyone that is there, stays there. Coupled with the state of the economy, this is the recipe for a new awakening to the reasons unions came to exist in the first place.

"Union bosses", in the way in was meant, are not optimal, but not all unions have those cushy jobs with lack of accountability. It might be useful to learn a little bit about what working life was like before there were unions, and the benefits that unions brought to all of us.

I can say this: If I worked at Wal-Mart, I'd likely be better compensated and happier if I had union representation, "union bosses" and all.

Private unions, of employees of private companies, offer collective bargaining strengths to their members, and therefore may have a contributing factor in making up for areas of potential abuse that the government has not corrected.

Trade unions, of employees of private companies, fit a similar place, and can be a factor in improving work conditions and other standards that may not be legislated.

Public employee unions are a scourge on the economy, contribute nothing to the society, and cater only to the lowest of base values against the values of the society that pays for them, to the benefit of government employees who have both the legislature to protect them from unfair employment factors, and unions to overwhelm the government employers.

This last group is not only offers the least improvement to society, but also seems to be the most likely lately to abuse their political capacity to install weak kneed legislators who are installed to do the public employees union's bidding.

I believe it is very important to keep in mind the difference between unions for employees of private companies, and unions for employees of the government.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:42 PM   #23
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Public employee unions are a scourge on the economy, contribute nothing to the society, and cater only to the lowest of base values against the values of the society that pays for them, to the benefit of government employees who have both the legislature to protect them from unfair employment factors, and unions to overwhelm the government employers.

This last group is not only offers the least improvement to society, but also seems to be the most likely lately to abuse their political capacity to install weak kneed legislators who are installed to do the public employees union's bidding.
This perspective is simply incorrect. First of all, employee unions (governmental or not) exist to protect the union members and enhance their compensation and working conditions. Period. Improvements that unions win for their employees often transfer to non-union employees, and subsequently trickle into the population in general, but that is not the priority of any union.

In the end, unions have only one lever to pull, withholding services. That capability is denied to many public employees because they are allegedly "protected" from workplace abuse by their employer...but what if their employer is following a political agenda and finds it politically expeditious to attack them, rather than protect them?

Yeah, unions can sometimes be mobilized politically. When a sentiment is widespread, beyond the specific interests of one union, this can have an effect at the voting booth, as it did in Ohio and will in Wisconsin. In Ohio, the citizenry voted specifically, and rather overwhelmingly, to retain public unions.

Are there governmental union members who are overcompensated and under worked? Surely. Just like in every other sector. However, I know of many situations that are on the other end of that equation. In some states, elementary school teachers are now required to have a master's degree. That can take six or seven years. Then, they might get a part-time position (if they are lucky), at $24,000 per year, without benefits. Not only have they paid to go to school for six years (minimal investment of $90k with tuition, books, and housing), but they have been out of the workplace during that same time. Had they taken even a minimum wage out of high school, they would have made $60,000 during that same time. Thus, a teacher starts a career around $150,000 in the hole, compared to a working high school graduate. And for what? The "big bucks"? Maybe....sometime in the future. But they still have that $150k hole to climb out of.

And someone thinks THESE people don't have a legitimate need for a strong union?
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:54 PM   #24
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The real problem with public sector unions is the nature of the relationships between the parties doing the negotiation.

The fact that unions can donate to political campaigns is corrosive. The politicization of the process further undermines the integrity of the negotiation.

I support fair treatment of public workers, but I don't think we can just pretend that it's the same as in the private sector, and apply the same solutions in the same way.

How many private sectors have pensions, at all?
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:36 AM   #25
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The fact that unions can donate to political campaigns is corrosive. The politicization of the process further undermines the integrity of the negotiation.
I agree. Money corrupts. Big money corrupts quickly. I support a constitutional amendment that states that only individuals may contribute to political campaigns, and that all contributions are public information, that corporations (and unions) are not "people", nor is money "free speech". This may be the singular most important issue for the long-term political health of the USA. SuperPACs must be stopped. The poo will hit the fan one of these days when we learn that China, or Iran, is contributing heavily to someone's Super PAC.

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How many private sectors have pensions, at all?
Not so many, but public sector is going the same direction. In my local area of subspace, defined benefit plans are extinct at the state level, replaced by defined contribution...just like the private sector. And, BTW, this change was made without a lot of teeth gnashing by negotiating in good faith with the public employee unions in the state.
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:34 AM   #26
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Not so many, but public sector is going the same direction. In my local area of subspace, defined benefit plans are extinct at the state level, replaced by defined contribution...just like the private sector. And, BTW, this change was made without a lot of teeth gnashing by negotiating in good faith with the public employee unions in the state.
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Old 03-23-2012, 05:03 AM   #27
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The part of this question that interests me is whether the batteries were compatible with the I2.

I have purchased 3 sets of batteries from Segway including the original set and all 3 have been duds. I purchased a set of "partially used up" ones from a Segwaychat poster and his had 25% more range, minimum, than the brand new Segway batteries. I need to find an alternative supply.
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Old 03-23-2012, 07:54 AM   #28
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The part of this question that interests me is whether the batteries were compatible with the I2.

I have purchased 3 sets of batteries from Segway including the original set and all 3 have been duds. I purchased a set of "partially used up" ones from a Segwaychat poster and his had 25% more range, minimum, than the brand new Segway batteries. I need to find an alternative supply.
Where did the segwaychat poster get those batteries they sold you? I suspect they came from Segway and at one point were brand new Segway batteries. I am unaware of any alternative sources.

I suspect your dud batteries have some other factor that needs to be considered.
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:11 PM   #29
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Wow! This thread is now on another planet from where it started...
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:32 PM   #30
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Wow! This thread is now on another planet from where it started...
That is true, but it has made me think that perhaps some of these knock-off sources for segway look-a-likes may provide an alternate source for batteries. I suspect not, but who knows?
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