Feeling embarrassed being British right now

[Bob.Kerns]

Originally Posted by goldwing_midland_tx

I thought "welfare" was supposed to help people get back on their feet not become a full time "job"

That's an over-simplification, although partially [edit: mostly] right.

For some people, there is no getting back on their feet. They may be dying, or disabled, or caring for someone disabled or dying.

But yes, that's the outcome we'd like where possible. Let's just not forget that it's not always a realistic outcome.

[Rolacoy]

Wow, some nerves have been exposed. Had we met at the Alamo we might have needed paintball guns.

[Civicsman]

I like to fact-check before I post.

Bob, you have likely ruined any potential to work beneath your station at Fox News.


Regarding WPA-like programs, here's the rub. The gummint has access to really cheap labor. Most unemployment programs limit payment to $200-$300 per week. That's barely over the poverty-line for a two-person family, and well below it for larger families. So now you take these people and put them to work as laborers on highway programs (for example). They displace people who are making a more reasonable (living?) wage, pushing them into unemployment. Or, into jobs where they make so little that they are eligible for other support programs for the poor. Some private companies who have access to the cheap labor pool will displace companies who don't have access. Those companies will starve and put more out of work. The answer isn't near-slave labor. It's the availability of more jobs with reasonable compensation.

Now, if you change unemployment insurance so that it pays a reasonable wage for a day's work, and provides the other amenities of regular employment, then that's another story, but nobody is talking about doing THAT.

I do find it humorous that you say "If government can do it better, then...". The mere suggestion that government is capable of doing ANYTHING puts you into the commie-antichrist-stinkin' liberal column in the view of the extreme right.

Remember, they believe it is really important to send people to Washington that have no experience, and more importantly, firmly believe that government can not work. THESE are the people they want in charge!

Imagine this Tea-Party philosophy applied to hiring practices at your local auto repair shop:

Now Hiring: Auto Mechanic. Must have no knowledge or experience in auto repair and must believe without question that this repair shop is not capable of fixing vehicles.

[Bob.Kerns]

Originally Posted by Civicsman

Bob, you have likely ruined any potential to work beneath your station at Fox News.


Regarding WPA-like programs, here's the rub. The gummint has access to really cheap labor. Most unemployment programs limit payment to $200-$300 per week. That's barely over the poverty-line for a two-person family, and well below it for larger families. So now you take these people and put them to work as laborers on highway programs (for example). They displace people who are making a more reasonable (living?) wage, pushing them into unemployment. Or, into jobs where they make so little that they are eligible for other support programs for the poor. Some private companies who have access to the cheap labor pool will displace companies who don't have access. Those companies will starve and put more out of work. The answer isn't near-slave labor. It's the availability of more jobs with reasonable compensation.

Now, if you change unemployment insurance so that it pays a reasonable wage for a day's work, and provides the other amenities of regular employment, then that's another story, but nobody is talking about doing THAT.

I do find it humorous that you say "If government can do it better, then...". The mere suggestion that government is capable of doing ANYTHING puts you into the commie-antichrist-stinkin' liberal column in the view of the extreme right.

Remember, they believe it is really important to send people to Washington that have no experience, and more importantly, firmly believe that government can not work. THESE are the people they want in charge!

Imagine this Tea-Party philosophy applied to hiring practices at your local auto repair shop:

Now Hiring: Auto Mechanic. Must have no knowledge or experience in auto repair and must believe without question that this repair shop is not capable of fixing vehicles.

You're supposing making a classic mistake with the WPA programs, and then assuming they can't work as a result.

Clearly, you do NOT displace existing spending with WPA spending. What a dumb idea! A complete straw-man.

And that was a big problem with the TARP spending, which largely went to boost shaky state and local budgets, like avoiding layoffs in police departments.

The only WPA-style spending that makes any sense is for WPA-style projects -- ones that weren't happening otherwise, but are still long-term investments.

We can't hire everybody who's out of work, though, even if we had enough such projects.

But I do realize that suggesting that a company should actually have to demonstrate that, at a minimum, it should have to do a better job than government, when working for government, marks me as a lefty in some eyes. Funny, I'd have thought it'd mark me as a conservative -- being prudent with our money.

[Civicsman]

The only WPA-style spending that makes any sense is for WPA-style projects -- ones that weren't happening otherwise, but are still long-term investments.

I agree, but wouldn't the argument still be that if the work is worth paying for, then it is needed, and if it is needed, shouldn't the work, and money, be going to existing businesses and to workers that would be paid a much more reasonable wage?

What WPA-type project did you have in mind...and where are all those people going to live while working on the projects?

[KSagal]

One WPA project I am familiar with was a series of roads in a park in New Haven, Connecticut. The roads wound up a series of hills in East Rock park, which had some cliffs sheared by a glacier from just before the last global warming period.

Those roads and the stone bridges are still functional, but hardly needed or replacements for the normal infrastructure of the area. They clearly were make-work projects.

They were on the outskirts of town. No need to house people.

Norway is socialistic, but makes money from the oil in the north sea. Nice place, cold, few people great natural resources that supply a product the world wants. Not entirely unlike Alaska. Similar economic advantages, lots of oil, not lots of people. Socialism had nothing to do with their advantages.

When people are married, that income is impossible to miss. When filling out the application, the 'single mother' simply does not mention the guy. They do it outside of the guidelines. Bob, I am surprised you needed me to say that. We could make believe all kinds of things, or speak honestly to what actually is happening.

[KSagal]

Obama's aunt lives in public housing in Boston, and in an interview, indicated that she lived in Public housing, and had a snap card as well are other benefits. She went on to explain that she required this level of support, and we owed it to her.

Again, she said all this in an interview. Perhaps she is the only one. I think not.

[Bob.Kerns]

Originally Posted by KSagal

Those roads and the stone bridges are still functional, but hardly needed or replacements for the normal infrastructure of the area. They clearly were make-work projects.

They were on the outskirts of town. No need to house people.

Norway is socialistic, but makes money from the oil in the north sea. Nice place, cold, few people great natural resources that supply a product the world wants. Not entirely unlike Alaska. Similar economic advantages, lots of oil, not lots of people. Socialism had nothing to do with their advantages.

When people are married, that income is impossible to miss. When filling out the application, the 'single mother' simply does not mention the guy. They do it outside of the guidelines. Bob, I am surprised you needed me to say that. We could make believe all kinds of things, or speak honestly to what actually is happening.

I would never say that all WPA projects are good, or defend make-work. On the contrary, I argue that if you're in a tough economy, making wise spending decisions is more important, not less.

Politically, TARP was probably as good as we were going to get, given the sense of urgency. That doesn't mean I think it was well thought out.

Regarding Norway -- that's exactly why I said I wouldn't consider them a counter-example.

Re: marriage -- first,you were talking about subsidies. I addressed that. Now,you switch it to fraud.

I won't claim to have any idea of the amount of fraud. I'm suspicious of the numbers I've seen, just because I suspect it's difficult to be accurate.

But there ARE enforcement mechanisms, which do try to detect it. Do you have any suggestions for improvement? Since the law already is the way you want regarding incentives, how do you remove the incentive to cheat? One is in place -- lifetime ineligibility if you're caught.

Also, it's not that hard to track down incomes from tax returns from the same address. I seem to recall MA had a program like that in place a couple of decades ago.

Obviously, one is to let people starve -- nothing left to gain from cheating. I don't think that would result in a better society, or even a better economy. It doesn't give people any positive incentives. But you still have yours, and they still want it. Hmm...can you afford a bodyguard? Can you trust him? There are nightmares down that path.

[Bob.Kerns]

Originally Posted by KSagal

Obama's aunt lives in public housing in Boston, and in an interview, indicated that she lived in Public housing, and had a snap card as well are other benefits. She went on to explain that she required this level of support, and we owed it to her.

Again, she said all this in an interview. Perhaps she is the only one. I think not.

Let me go on record right now that I am not responsible for the opinions or actions of any of my aunts. Or my mother, for that matter.

I'm sure my kids and nephews would make a similar statement about me.

[KSagal]

Originally Posted by Bob.Kerns

Let me go on record right now that I am not responsible for the opinions or actions of any of my aunts. Or my mother, for that matter.

I'm sure my kids and nephews would make a similar statement about me.

You do know, of course, that she is not a citizen.

With regard to fraud, I did mention no effort is placed on asking her about the father, nor trying to hold him accountable.

Laws on the books and laws enforced are two different things. Once it becomes common practice to ignor a law, or not enforce it, the government chooses to make new laws.

Illegal aliens are a good example. It is illegal to hire them, but no one or rarely does anyone get caught or punished for doing it.

Making cell phone use in cars is another good example. Most every state has laws against driving while distracted. Other laws about proper lane changes, and reckless driving. All these things are the things people do on cell phones, and the reason that state after state is now making use of cell phones in the car illegal.

If they just enforced the safe operation laws, they would not need new laws.