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Old 04-04-2010, 11:34 AM   #1
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Default Wisconsin Billboard - Hope and Change

Saw this the other day. It apparently went up just after the health care vote. It is located on I-94 westbound at CTH E in the Town of Concord enroute from Milwaukee to Madison. I had to stop and take a couple of pictures:

Billboard Wisconsin Hope and Change 2.jpg

Billboard Wisconsin Hope and Change.jpg
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Old 04-25-2010, 11:47 AM   #2
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How's that working out? Actually, it's working out pretty good for the people that voted to make it happen.

For others, responses range from disgruntled to a distressing increase in lunatic fringe.

Clearly, some people believe that "democracy" only applies when they are getting their own way.

Things would probably be better if the Republicans didn't decide to secede from government. Legitimate participation on their part would likely make for better legislation. However, they have decided that they will adopt the strategy used by the Sunni in Iraq a few years back, to act like children and not participate.

So, how's that working out for ya?
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Old 04-25-2010, 10:59 PM   #3
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How's that working out? Actually, it's working out pretty good for the people that voted to make it happen.

For others, responses range from disgruntled to a distressing increase in lunatic fringe.

Clearly, some people believe that "democracy" only applies when they are getting their own way.

Things would probably be better if the Republicans didn't decide to secede from government. Legitimate participation on their part would likely make for better legislation. However, they have decided that they will adopt the strategy used by the Sunni in Iraq a few years back, to act like children and not participate.

So, how's that working out for ya?
I don't know that what you say is accurate... If they were left out in the cold as they claim, it may not be fair to place this on them... If they chose not to participate, then your claim may have some merit... I did not see any claim to have evidence either way...

Regardless of all that, I firmly believe that if the legislature were prohibited from exempting themselves from their own plans, then our country would be better off... Fix Social Security? Include congress. Fix healthcare, include congress (instead of their super healthcare they have now, a Cadillac plan if there every was one). Fix the tax code? Remove all special considerations for congress...

One thing I do know, and that is simply blaming a party for this or that failing is not productive. The Democrats nor the Republicans are evil, or even wrong, but several individuals are not speaking the truth, and are often motivated by personal agendas, instead of what is honestly in the public good... And even the definition of the 'public good' is not a concept that is the same to all people...

I happen to like the United States, and feel that to be a good country it does not need to be remade (but I am happy to concede that there are improvements available)... Others do not agree. Some even campaigned on their ability to remake it as it should be...
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Old 04-26-2010, 12:06 AM   #4
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In the last few months there can be no question that the Republican strategy was to sit on their hands and watch the Dems fall on their collective faces for lack of votes. It was (and is) a high stakes strategy that has, so far, failed pretty miserably.

Please don't suggest that Democrats blocked Republican ideas. If Republicans had decided to offer alternatives they have plenty of ways to reach the public. Rush, Bill, and Glenn (who says he is getting direction from God) would have been thrilled to be conduits for Republican alternatives, but there were none of consequence. In the end, the Dems voted on their own package because the Republicans refused to engage. This '"just say no" approach is well-documented by some highly conservative people who thought it was a real bad idea. Turns out they were right.

Your point that the definition of "public good" is not the same for all people is spot on, just as the list of "improvements" to be made to the USA would not be the same for all. You have every right to have your own opinion on these things, but you must conceded that in a democracy, the people have the right to change their society and the laws that define that society.

Some people DID campaign on remaking the United States "as it should be", and a lot of people voted in agreement with that. Some people will not be happy with the way some things may progress, but that is the nature of a democracy.

Personally, I believe one should be highly suspicious of anyone suggesting that they "want their country back". This is the fundamentally flawed thinking of an elitist, but if the country takes a different direction from the elitist's "right path", then it means that the elitist is no longer in the majority. Some people have a lot of difficulty with that.

.
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Old 04-26-2010, 02:23 AM   #5
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In the last few months there can be no question that the Republican strategy was to sit on their hands and watch the Dems fall on their collective faces for lack of votes. It was (and is) a high stakes strategy that has, so far, failed pretty miserably.

Please don't suggest that Democrats blocked Republican ideas. If Republicans had decided to offer alternatives they have plenty of ways to reach the public. Rush, Bill, and Glenn (who says he is getting direction from God) would have been thrilled to be conduits for Republican alternatives, but there were none of consequence. In the end, the Dems voted on their own package because the Republicans refused to engage. This '"just say no" approach is well-documented by some highly conservative people who thought it was a real bad idea. Turns out they were right.

Your point that the definition of "public good" is not the same for all people is spot on, just as the list of "improvements" to be made to the USA would not be the same for all. You have every right to have your own opinion on these things, but you must conceded that in a democracy, the people have the right to change their society and the laws that define that society.

Some people DID campaign on remaking the United States "as it should be", and a lot of people voted in agreement with that. Some people will not be happy with the way some things may progress, but that is the nature of a democracy.

Personally, I believe one should be highly suspicious of anyone suggesting that they "want their country back". This is the fundamentally flawed thinking of an elitist, but if the country takes a different direction from the elitist's "right path", then it means that the elitist is no longer in the majority. Some people have a lot of difficulty with that.

.
You can say that you have no question about the Republican strategy, but that does not make it so, and when I asked if there was any proof at all, you seem to have forgotten to offer any... You are indeed welcome to your opinions, but that does not make them facts...

You do have a point about democracies or more specifically voters getting the government they deserve, in that they get the politicians they elect. If you don't like the things they do, fix it in November... I happen to think that a change will be voted into office this November, but we will see...

As for your last comment about it being appropriate to be suspicious of anyone claiming they will "want their country back". It is not a new phenomenon... Since the Democrats are in power, the current folks who want to do so are not Democrats... Prior to 2008, it was a different crowd who was chanting the same words... You were right to be suspicious of them, as look at the spending mess they have made!

I cut and pasted a couple hits on a google search of those words...


http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1022-13.htm

Published on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 by CommonDreams.org
An Open Letter to America: It's Time to Take Back Our Country
by John & Elaine Mellencamp

http://pickrset.com/musicnews/1395/s...love+this+fall

Posted By: Indiependentmusic on Aug 27th, 2008 @ 7:20pm
Boston's State Radio have announced a headlining tour "Take The Country Back Tour" this fall. ... In a special show on November 29 at Terminal 5 in New York City, punk rockers Anti Flag will join the bill.

"The 'Take The Country Back Tour' is dedicated to the people who've been victims of the government cut backs," says State Radio frontman Chad Stokes Urmston. "Whether it's veterans unable to pay for their hospital bills or inner-city kids who've lost funding for their music program, all of these issues are human issues and have been disregarded for so long. We'd like you to join us in finding your voice and taking the country back."



http://www.thenation.com/doc/2006073...ck_our_country

Take Back Our Country
by ELSIE FOX

...
I want to voice my appreciation for all of you that are here today. I also want to voice my appreciation for "Montana Women For Peace, Equality and Justice". Their aims embody the tradition of Jeanette Rankin. They are fast becoming spokespersons for we, the people. Let's give them a cheer that can be heard up the mountainsides of the Gallatin Valley!
Elsie Fox, a 98-year old activist, delivered this speech at a Mother's Day rally for peace in Bozeman, Montana. It is published here as part of The Nation's Moral Compass series, focusing on the spoken word.



All people should be suspicious of those who state their opinion and call it obvious or undeniable facts... If you do this, it is disingenuous, even if you honestly believe your opinion to be accurate... Facts are facts, conclusions are conclusions, and what may be obvious to one, may be propaganda to another...
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Old 04-26-2010, 09:28 AM   #6
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Actually, Karl, you did not ask for proof. You simply said you did not see any claim to have evidence. Not the same thing, of course.

I did not offer evidence about the Republican strategy. Those who read widely and are open minded can draw their own conclusions, and certainly should have by now. I have learned that evidence, for some people, is beyond the realm of possibility. These folks already "know" the answer and only seek confirmation of their personal beliefs.

However, searching for "republican strategy" on Google, I found this within 30 seconds. http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo

David Frum is very politically conservative, and is well connected within the Republican party. Look him up on Wikipedia (if you trust that gol-derned internet!). He is in a position to know and is intelligent enough to comprehend the strategy of the Republican party.

Summarizing the salient point of his article:

Quote:
At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994.
...
This time, when we went for all the marbles, we ended with none.
This is not "proof", of course, but is is surely evidence. Even a half-baked search of conservative sources could easily confirm the Republican "do nothing and let them fail" strategy. As a result of this strategy, the legislation that is passing is entirely the product of the Democratic party. It didn't have to be this way. The resulting legislation probably would have been better.

Will the political landscape change in November? Almost assuredly! Historically, it always has. However, as the Frum article states, the big ticket items, like health care, are not going to be repealed, no matter what happens in November.

So, going back to the OP, the "hope and change" thing is working out reasonably well for those that voted for hope and change. Big things have already happened. Do I need to provide evidence for that?

...and just for the record, I view the statement "take our country back" as suspicious and elitist no matter where it originates. However, as long as "take it back" means voting in November, I can live with it.
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Old 04-26-2010, 05:00 PM   #7
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This is not "proof", of course, but is is surely evidence. Even a half-baked search of conservative sources could easily confirm the Republican "do nothing and let them fail" strategy. As a result of this strategy, the legislation that is passing is entirely the product of the Democratic party. It didn't have to be this way. The resulting legislation probably would have been better.
That is very much my position as well, especially the last sentence. What the Republicans did was treasonous. (Not "treason"). They betrayed the people who voted for them, and their country, in the hopes of seizing more power threreby in the midterm elections.

Of course, it is my opinion that this is in the very nature of political parties, and that the Republicans of late are merely a somewhat more virulent expression of the evils of political parties that George Washington warned us about in his Farewell Address.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Washington
I have already intimated to you the danger of parties in the State, with particular reference to the founding of them on geographical discriminations. Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party generally.

This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but, in those of the popular form, it is seen in its greatest rankness, and is truly their worst enemy.

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of public liberty.

Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight), the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.

It serves always to distract the public councils and enfeeble the public administration. It agitates the community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms, kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which finds a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.
And a bit later:
Quote:
As a very important source of strength and security, cherish public credit. One method of preserving it is to use it as sparingly as possible, avoiding occasions of expense by cultivating peace, but remembering also that timely disbursements to prepare for danger frequently prevent much greater disbursements to repel it, avoiding likewise the accumulation of debt, not only by shunning occasions of expense, but by vigorous exertion in time of peace to discharge the debts which unavoidable wars may have occasioned, not ungenerously throwing upon posterity the burden which we ourselves ought to bear. The execution of these maxims belongs to your representatives, but it is necessary that public opinion should co-operate. To facilitate to them the performance of their duty, it is essential that you should practically bear in mind that towards the payment of debts there must be revenue; that to have revenue there must be taxes; that no taxes can be devised which are not more or less inconvenient and unpleasant; that the intrinsic embarrassment, inseparable from the selection of the proper objects (which is always a choice of difficulties), ought to be a decisive motive for a candid construction of the conduct of the government in making it, and for a spirit of acquiescence in the measures for obtaining revenue, which the public exigencies may at any time dictate.
A great man, George Washington. Sadly, his views have been much neglected by generations of school teachers, who tell us stories of Valley Forge, show us a nice painting of a rowboat and a dramatic fool, and nothing of his lessons for history.

Anyway, how's hope and change working out? About as expected. Health Care came out a little better than expected, really, despite the grand gift to the insurance companies. We at least escaped the harm that would have been done by yet another demonstration of our political inability to address health insurance -- even though we did get a demonstration that we're not very good at it. Eventually, I will be insurable. It may cost $1,000,000/yr, but that's a step in the right direction.

But not as good as I'd hoped, I'm afraid. I'd hoped the Republicans would have participated. I'd hoped that the saner wing of the Tea Party would have found an effective, democratic outlet for calls for responsibility in government. Instead, what we got has been an endless sabotage of the GOP.

I'd hoped that people would ignore the harsher voices, and we'd achieve some degree of dialog on the issues that divide us. Instead, we got a news organization taking center stage, that feels free to hound anyone who disagrees with them, even GOP Senators who challenge their lies. By lying about their own record, claiming they never said what they have repeatedly said, on air. And then gloat about having taken the Senator down a notch.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_539478.html

You may question the source, but focus on the videotape evidence.

The GOP is being manipulated, to its--and our--detriment.

I think it sucks for the GOP, and for America. I don't look forward to one party rule.
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Old 04-26-2010, 07:47 PM   #8
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I agree that one party rule will not be healthy for the USA. Unfortunately, with the GOP trending even more towards extremist positions, the likelihood of their recovery in near term is questionable.

Perhaps there is some hope in Charlie Crist running as an independent in Florida. Crist is pretty far right, but not far enough for "the base". To them, he's a moderate, and being a moderate is almost liberal, gol-durn it! So Crist is considering dumping the GOP and running as an independent, where, IMHO, he's got a fair chance of taking all the marbles. The far right will go with Rubio, but the moderate Republicans (formerly called the "silent majority"), will go with Crist, along with a percentage of independents. If that happens, perhaps it will be a wake up call for Republicans, although "learn slowly" seems to be a plank in their national party.

The link in Bob Kern's post pretty much says it all. Fundamentally, they are using the Joseph Goebbels philosophy that if you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The problem for the congressman is that he didn't come to the show fully prepared to defend his statement, and O'Reilly showed him how it's done on FOX.

I say that all the on-air staff at FOX should wear big red rubber noses. That way, viewers would have a better chance of understanding what they are watching, although there is a good chance a fair percentage would still fail to get it.

That's because the problem isn't really FOX, per se. They are only taking advantage of the natural order of things, once stated as, "A sucker is born every minute". For some people, thinking for yourself is considered a good thing. For far too many others, a few sound bites with Glenn Beck is all the "thinking" they need to do.

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Old 04-26-2010, 09:02 PM   #9
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Bob, and the man with no name....

You guys need to at least try to see that there are many people who do not go to Huffington Post, because of several carefully edited clips that make it seem that one thing is being said, when it is not as it seems...

That bill did include penalties and jail time, but they were removed before it was passed. That does not mean that it never had the jail provision, or that someone lied when they spoke of the jail time as a penalty for not buying health care from government approved insurance companies...

The Coburn piece was after it was passed. I noticed that all the clips from the FOX news channel had their date stamps removed. How convenient.

O'Reilly did say that no one ever said it, and that was wrong. He went on to explain that no said it after it was removed, but your clip does not show that part, because it does not perpetuate the lie...

You can tell things that are untrue all you like. You can tell things that may or may not be true all you like... You can espouse your opinions as self evident, or obvious, when they may be to you, but not to others... But none of these things make them facts...

I would like a direct response to this possibility... I suspect that one reason that severe penalties including fines and jail were removed from the bill before it was passed as a result of many people pointing these penalties out... I think that all those clips pressured the Democrats who wrote this bill to improve it by removing that particular bad section... What do you think about that?

You are both condemning the GOP for being shut out, or maybe even for saying that they chose to not participate (No GOP politicians were named in this evidence of a strategy, just talking heads) but forgot to mention how the Democrats had no problem changing the voting rules, made all kinds of deals like for cornhuskers and the LA Purchase, and for Dodds take home dollars for an out of plan hospital... Your argument to attack the GOP for one party acting poorly weakens when you fail to mention the current excesses of the party in power...

I understand your position, you both state it clearly. Just because I may not agree does not mean I will not listen to reason, it just means that what I consider to be reasonable is not what you consider to be reasonable... I have offered what is clearly and obviously strong arguments, and you have not bought in to my view, so clearly you are no more likely to listen to reason than me...

If you take bits and pieces of video clips and edit them sufficiently, and remove the dates and pay no attention to the order or context, you can prove that Democrats are against women voting, or that Jim Crowe was a brilliant man... While it can be done, it would not be reasonable, unless you gave it appropriate context and remark that it is a very dated and politically incorrect position that may have been common at the time, but is no longer appropriate...
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Old 04-26-2010, 10:27 PM   #10
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That bill did include penalties and jail time, but they were removed before it was passed.
Incorrect. The fines are still there. The bill never included jail time. However, the final bill specifically excluded criminal penalties.

O'Reilly challenged Sen. Coburn to name "one person on FOX who has said that they will go to jail if they don't buy health insurance". Followed by "you don't know anybody on FOX News 'cause there hasn't been anyone.", and "we researched to see if anybody had ever said you're going to jail if you don't buy health insurance. Nobody has ever said it."

Either his "research" was as good as the other FOX research, or he was lying and hoping nobody would catch him at it. You choose. Either way, FOX has a stench about it.

The following night, after getting blasted, O'Reilly flip-flopped and covered his butt, by effectively stating that "nobody ever said that" did not really mean "nobody ever said that". This follow up clip IS posted on Huffington, right below the original.

(FYI, the first time I visited Huffington Post was today. They are are indeed a liberal website, but there is no need to go there to have an informed opinion about the "fair and balanced" nature of FOX News. OMG, who in their right mind can defend Glenn Beck as anything other than comedic entertainment?)

Give us a break. FOX is the network of "death panel" allegations and outright support of the Tea Party. This is hardly unbiased journalism. Anyone who can watch those clips, hammering away at "jail time" (and knowing that there are potential criminal penalties at the end of almost any violation of law), and say with a straight face that they are not outrageous propaganda has a potential career as a political spokesperson.
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