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Old 03-08-2012, 10:51 PM   #1
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Default Another electric car PR disaster

During basic pre-test preparation, a Fisker Karma under test by Consumer Reports died and could not be restarted.

Quote:
"Consumer Reports says their Karma went bad after a warning light flashed during an initial drive; when they parked the car, the transmission refused to shift. "We buy about 80 cars a year and this is the first time in memory that we have had a car that is undriveable before it has finished our check-in process," the magazine said.
Fisker released a statement, saying
Quote:
It's important to note that with more than 400 Fisker Karma sedans already on the road in the U.S., we also have many satisfied customers who are enjoying daily commutes in their cars...
This is an ludicrous statement and represents an incredibly bad attitude from a manufacturer. They don't have "many" cars on the road. The statement should have read, "We only have 400 cars on the road. There is absolutely no excuse for any of our vehicles to be dead-on-the-road." Further, according to various news services, there are a number of reports by other owners of other serious problems, such as intermittent electrical black-out conditions.

As I have mentioned before, it is extremely difficult to engineer and build cars properly. This is often terribly misunderstood by newbie vehicle manufacturers. A few early adopters may accept the idea that their $100K car won't function, but the shine on that apple wears off very quickly.

I don't care much about Fisker itself. It's a niche player, but it's another black eye for electric vehicle technologies. Therefore, I hope they they get it sorted out quickly.
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:35 AM   #2
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At least it did not burst into flames. Some failures are worse than others.

Do we own Fisker Karma with tax dollars?


.


.


I thought that the Prius was not plagued with so many failures in the beginning, but I may be mis-remembering. Also, the Honda Insight. (sp?) They were fairly expensive for their time, but did the engineering work?

Also, I would love someone to explain the major differences between these hybrid cars and these electric cars. I know my neighbors prius and the ones I rented are electric at slow speeds, and locally. The engine comes on for horsepower and range, but are the electric cars spoken about today (Volt, Leaf) substantially different?
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:38 AM   #3
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Prius and Insight are hybrids (without getting into the differences between series hybrids and parallel hybrids). They have a small and efficient gasoline engine for basic propulsion. They have relatively small batteries and electric motors to assist acceleration (due to the small gasoline engine), and which may allow very short distance electric-only operation. This type of hybrid comprises the majority of all hybrids that are on the market today. They are particularly good at stop-and-go driving. Sometimes their city MPG rating will exceed their highway rating. The gasoline engine comes on automatically to recharge the batteries, and on the highway, they operate on their gasoline engine, as it only takes 12-15 HP to maintain highway speeds. Since they are fundamentally driven by their gasoline engines, the Prius and Insight can be operated over long distances just like any conventional vehicle.

The Volt is a "Plug-in" hybrid. Unlike those above, you can charge the batteries by plugging it into the mains. The Volt batteries are much larger than the Prius or Insight, and the electric motors are the only direct drive mechanism. GM says you can travel "up to" 50 miles on batteries alone. This can effectively make the Volt an electric vehicle for many commuters. Charge it at home overnight, drive to work, maybe top it off at work, drive home, and plug in. However, the Volt also has a small gasoline engine/generator that automatically starts to recharge the batteries, and to provide power to drive the vehicle through the electric motors, when the batteries are depleted. Since the Volt has a gasoline engine, it can also be driven long distances, just like any other conventional vehicle.

The Nissan Leaf is pure electric. It has only batteries and electric motors. It is rated (I believe) at "up to" about 80 miles between charges, but like with Segs, there are a lot of variables. Hills, or use of air conditioner or heater will significantly reduce the remaining distance in the batteries. Turning on an accessory can lead to an instant reduction in calculated remaining miles. This has led to the creation of the term "range anxiety", where the owner wonders whether they will get home before the battery expires. This is similar to running out of gas, but commercial recharging stations are currently few and far between, and the time to achieve sufficient charge to get home could greatly exceed the time normally spent at a gas station. The Leaf, and other upcoming electric-only vehicles like the Ford Focus, are good for commuting, but effectively unusable for distance driving. It can take hours to fully recharge the battery. However, fuel costs are cheap. The US EPA rate the Leaf at the equivalent of 99 MPG.

Bob Kerns, as an owner, can surely tell us more about the Prius, but it is my perception that neither Toyota or Honda had the levels of problems that we are currently seeing with the small, boutique car companies. Perhaps my memory fails, but I would expect nothing different. Existing car companies have well-defined processes for testing which would expose many weak points before production. Startups most certainly do not have the in-house testing capability and processes that one would see at bigger and longer-existing companies. Also, existing companies have other products to support the company while they engineer and test, whereas startups are watching their cash reserves dwindle every day until they sell some vehicles. This eventually leads to a lot of pressure to go to production.

Regarding bursting into flames, it is certainly very bad PR. However, it is worth defining the circumstances of the the two Volt vehicles where this occurred. Both had been through very serious crashes, and neither had subsequently been discharged by fire/emergency crews. GM has published information about how to deal with electrical issues (high voltage, post crash, etc) and has provided hardware support to fire departments. In these two cases, the proper procedures were not followed, and the batteries eventually degraded.

Last edited by Civicsman; 03-09-2012 at 11:43 AM..
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Old 03-09-2012, 06:30 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Civicsman View Post
Prius and Insight are hybrids (without getting into the differences between series hybrids and parallel hybrids). They have a small and efficient gasoline engine for basic propulsion. They have relatively small batteries and electric motors to assist acceleration (due to the small gasoline engine), and which may allow very short distance electric-only operation. This type of hybrid comprises the majority of all hybrids that are on the market today. They are particularly good at stop-and-go driving. Sometimes their city MPG rating will exceed their highway rating. The gasoline engine comes on automatically to recharge the batteries, and on the highway, they operate on their gasoline engine, as it only takes 12-15 HP to maintain highway speeds. Since they are fundamentally driven by their gasoline engines, the Prius and Insight can be operated over long distances just like any conventional vehicle.

The Volt is a "Plug-in" hybrid. Unlike those above, you can charge the batteries by plugging it into the mains. The Volt batteries are much larger than the Prius or Insight, and the electric motors are the only direct drive mechanism. GM says you can travel "up to" 50 miles on batteries alone. This can effectively make the Volt an electric vehicle for many commuters. Charge it at home overnight, drive to work, maybe top it off at work, drive home, and plug in. However, the Volt also has a small gasoline engine/generator that automatically starts to recharge the batteries, and to provide power to drive the vehicle through the electric motors, when the batteries are depleted. Since the Volt has a gasoline engine, it can also be driven long distances, just like any other conventional vehicle.

The Nissan Leaf is pure electric. It has only batteries and electric motors. It is rated (I believe) at "up to" about 80 miles between charges, but like with Segs, there are a lot of variables. Hills, or use of air conditioner or heater will significantly reduce the remaining distance in the batteries. Turning on an accessory can lead to an instant reduction in calculated remaining miles. This has led to the creation of the term "range anxiety", where the owner wonders whether they will get home before the battery expires. This is similar to running out of gas, but commercial recharging stations are currently few and far between, and the time to achieve sufficient charge to get home could greatly exceed the time normally spent at a gas station. The Leaf, and other upcoming electric-only vehicles like the Ford Focus, are good for commuting, but effectively unusable for distance driving. It can take hours to fully recharge the battery. However, fuel costs are cheap. The US EPA rate the Leaf at the equivalent of 99 MPG.

Bob Kerns, as an owner, can surely tell us more about the Prius, but it is my perception that neither Toyota or Honda had the levels of problems that we are currently seeing with the small, boutique car companies. Perhaps my memory fails, but I would expect nothing different. Existing car companies have well-defined processes for testing which would expose many weak points before production. Startups most certainly do not have the in-house testing capability and processes that one would see at bigger and longer-existing companies. Also, existing companies have other products to support the company while they engineer and test, whereas startups are watching their cash reserves dwindle every day until they sell some vehicles. This eventually leads to a lot of pressure to go to production.

Regarding bursting into flames, it is certainly very bad PR. However, it is worth defining the circumstances of the the two Volt vehicles where this occurred. Both had been through very serious crashes, and neither had subsequently been discharged by fire/emergency crews. GM has published information about how to deal with electrical issues (high voltage, post crash, etc) and has provided hardware support to fire departments. In these two cases, the proper procedures were not followed, and the batteries eventually degraded.
Nice summary; I don't have much to add unless someone wants technical details about the Prius.

We own two gen-1 Prius -- a 2001 (the first model year) we bought in late 2000, and a 2003. Before buying the 2003, we checked out the then-new Civic Hybrid, but decided we liked the Prius better all around -- comfort, driving, economy, environmental... but the Civic Hybrid looked more like a conventional car, so I'm sure a lot of people were more comfortable buying it.

Repair-wise, it's been reasonably solid. I did have to replace the traction batteries after the warranty expired.

The only times it has ever refused to take me where I wanted to go, were when the traditional battery was drained flat -- for example, by leaving the interior lights on for an extended period. This is really silly, for two reasons -- one, those drains could be easily cut off after a while, and two, it only needs enough energy to activate a relay to start it. The actual engine cranking is done by the traction batteries, which are never allowed to drain. If the battery is low, it could activate the charging circuitry and recharge it when you finally turn the car on.

It makes jump-starting it really quick and easy, but hey, it shouldn't even be necessary.

I've got over 105,000 miles on mine (the 2001) and my wife has about 95,000 on hers. She's still on the original battery.

Neither has burst into flames.
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Obviously, we can't have infinite voltage, or the universe would tear itself to shreds, and we wouldn't be discussing Segways.
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Old 03-10-2012, 05:38 AM   #5
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I had a gen1 Honda Insight for 4 years and 80,000 miles. Not one screw went wrong with that car, and it averaged 65 mpg over the miles I drove it. Best 3-cylinder engine I've ever driven (compared to Suzuki, Subaru, Daihatsu) - very quiet and smooth. The whole car seemed indestructible, and it is one of the best daily drivers I've ever owned (and I've had lots).
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Old 03-10-2012, 12:52 PM   #6
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I don't know as much about the difference between the hybrids, the Leaf, and the Volt, but find it interesting and a step in the right direction. I think Civicsman's explanation is very clearly defined. But I often wonder about the small gasoline engines that are used to recharge the batteries and for extra horsepower when needed. How they are solving our dependence on oil? Sure you're using less, but aren't small gasoline engines less efficient at burning all the hydrocarbons and potentially creating more smog? The gasoline engines need to be GONE...period. IMO

So, with an acceptance of total electric cars, wanting to be the norm, what does anyone think about the future of recharge stations and what would they need to attract commuters, to WANT, to stay for a couple of hours to recharge? What would they do for a couple hours? A salon, a movie complex, a restaurant, a pub, what? How could say a mall, or parking lot, or complex refurbish itself to to enable electric car owners to recharge there, on a mass scale?

On another note, I've often wondered why, and if, an electric car can't run on two sets of batteries. Both initially fully charged, then when the first set starts to get low, each wheel could have built in generators that while the vehicle is in motion, they could recharge the depleted batteries? Thereby, always having a full set to get where you want. Then they would only need to perhaps top off the batteries at night. What kind of flaws are with a system like this?
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Old 03-10-2012, 04:00 PM   #7
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Quote:
But I often wonder about the small gasoline engines that are used to recharge the batteries and for extra horsepower when needed. How they are solving our dependence on oil? Sure you're using less, but aren't small gasoline engines less efficient at burning all the hydrocarbons and potentially creating more smog?
The underlying assumptions are incorrect. Small engines found on leaf blowers, lawn mowers and such are indeed crap. They cost about $30 to make. They use a $2 "carburetor" which slops fuel around. They use charge cooling, which means the engine runs very rich to keep it from burning a hole through the piston They typically operate on fixed spark timing which is terribly inefficient and generates all kind of pollutants at the exhaust. Further, any air-cooled engine runs too hot and makes NOx. Two-strokes are almost impossible to clean up because of their fundamental combustion cycle.

Small engines used in automobiles are something else entirely. They get their efficiency from having less friction and reciprocating mass than larger mutli-cylinder engines. Because they have small displacement, they have less throttling loss (because they run with the throttle closer to wide-open). With modern engine management systems and exhaust after-treatment, they are are as clean as anything else out there, and in terms of grams per mile, they are even cleaner.

Are they "solving" the dependence on oil? No, but they are helping to use less, just as the Seg is doing.


Quote:
So, with an acceptance of total electric cars, wanting to be the norm, what does anyone think about the future of recharge stations and what would they need to attract commuters, to WANT, to stay for a couple of hours to recharge?
With the technology now available, electric-only cars are not viable replacements for anything but inner-city and short-commute usage. That is a legitimate use, but limited. You only have to observe a conventional fueling station to realize that the average customer wants to spend about 2 minutes fueling, not two hours. Also, a full recharge takes more like 8 hours, not two.

Quote:
On another note, I've often wondered why, and if, an electric car can't run on two sets of batteries. Both initially fully charged, then when the first set starts to get low, each wheel could have built in generators that while the vehicle is in motion, they could recharge the depleted batteries? Thereby, always having a full set to get where you want. Then they would only need to perhaps top off the batteries at night. What kind of flaws are with a system like this?
This is a great idea, except it violates the laws of physics. You're essentially describing a perpetual motion machine. Where does the energy come from to recharge the set of depleted batteries? Generators take energy to spin, and this slows down a car just like regenerative braking does on a Seg. There are net inefficiencies with each conversion of energy, from chemical (in the battery) to electrical to mechanical, to kinetic, then back to mechanical. electrical and finally back to chemical. If you got 5% efficiency on the round trip I would be surprised. I bet it's less. Not to mention that these losses say nothing about actually trying to transport the mass of the vehicle, against road friction and wind resistance, from Point A to Point B.

Better to wish for fusion. Physics says perpetual motion is impossible. Physicists say that fusion is 20 years away...and always will be.
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:13 PM   #8
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But I often wonder about the small gasoline engines that are used to recharge the batteries .... How they are solving our dependence on oil? Sure you're using less, but aren't small gasoline engines less efficient at burning all the hydrocarbons and potentially creating more smog?
There's another really important part that you have ignored.

Typical gas car engines are relatively inefficient because they must operate over a wide range, from idle all the way up to red-line,
This inevtiably requires compromises to be made between efficiency, power and so on.

However if you can have a gas engine that is dedicated to ( and thus optimised for ) merely running a generator, that's a whole different ball game.
It can run at an ideal rev setting that works best for the gas engine and for the electric generator.
Efficiency and exhausts can be optimised.

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Old 03-10-2012, 08:22 PM   #9
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Absolutely correct! I don't know how I forgot about that.

It's not just engine RPM, it's the most efficient speed-load point. A point in the engine RPM and load map where the engine is very efficient, and the Brake Specific Fuel Consumption is minimized.

This ability to operate an engine at an optimized speed-load point was also supposed to be one of the advantages of the continuously variable transmission. The CVT can continuously change the effective drive ratio for the vehicle, while the engine stays at the most efficient speed-load point.

The problem is that people don't expect the engine to be a "one-note song" and think there is something wrong with the vehicle. Cars with CVT's have met significant resistance because of that. Some manufacturers have actually taken to simulating conventional engine/automatic transmission sounds to keep the customer in their comfort zone.
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Old 03-11-2012, 05:53 AM   #10
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Absolutely correct! I don't know how I forgot about that.

It's not just engine RPM, it's the most efficient speed-load point. A point in the engine RPM and load map where the engine is very efficient, and the Brake Specific Fuel Consumption is minimized.

This ability to operate an engine at an optimized speed-load point was also supposed to be one of the advantages of the continuously variable transmission. The CVT can continuously change the effective drive ratio for the vehicle, while the engine stays at the most efficient speed-load point.

The problem is that people don't expect the engine to be a "one-note song" and think there is something wrong with the vehicle. Cars with CVT's have met significant resistance because of that. Some manufacturers have actually taken to simulating conventional engine/automatic transmission sounds to keep the customer in their comfort zone.
It does take a bit of getting used to at first. But after a while, when you drive something else -- you realize there's the engine is almost ALWAYS running at the wrong speed.

That's bad for both fuel consumption and emissions. It also shortens the life of the engine -- and annoys the driver.

You just don't realize you're being annoyed anymore. But you're always driving in the wrong gear.
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