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Old 09-05-2008, 01:50 AM   #31
Bob.Kerns
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I'm glad you guys have agreed to disagree. But let me point out a bit about patent law.

I'm going to be unintentionally US-centric here; European patent law differs in some ways; probably not important to what I'm saying, but I don't really know.

First, as someone pointed out, there are design patents and utility patents. Design patents protect the form -- shape, color, etc.

Utility patents cover how something works. The fact that, say, a hands-free leansteer device is patented tells us nothing. You have to read the patent, and the specific claims, to know what would and would not infringe. While it *might* cover every conceivable approach to steering without hands, it probably does NOT cover the actual concept of steering without hands.

Most likely, it'd cover something like how to make the saddle parts comfortable and keep you from tipping forward or backward off your platform as you move your weight fore and aft. Specific design points.

So it would be quite possible for Karl to come up with a new way to do this, and not infringe. Or to infringe but not know it. Or to even infringe on a patent which has been applied for, but not yet issued.

A patent for which there is prior art on a particular claim, may have that claim invalidated. If I recall correctly, this can occur both via USPTO review and via the courts. Prior art is a bit tricky, but in the US, if it's been used or known prior to the act of invention, or in use or published within one year before the patent application, it's prior art.

Years ago, a certain modem company had some patent application they struggled to get through the USPTO. But by the time they succeeded, the only claim that made it through was the one the USPTO didn't understand. All the hardware claims were gone, but they managed to patent the idea that if you sent nothing for a few milliseconds, then sent some code sequence (AT), and then paused again, you could distinguish between commands and the actual data being sent.

I had prior art. I even dug it up at the request of the attorneys, but they flaked out on me, so I didn't get involved further. But it could have been overturned.

It also shouldn't have passed the obviousness test, in my opinion, but given that it did make it through the USPTO, other companies could make similar modems, but had to have a license to use this command technique. But if you came up with a different way that didn't fit the claims (say, surrounded by uninterrupted @@@@'s, and inserting a pause from the software if @@@@ was found in the data), then you'd not infringe, even though you were doing effectively the same thing -- just not in the particular way covered by the claim.

Anyway -- without looking AT THE ACTUAL PATENT, none of us can say whether Karl's design would infringe or not. Or whether there's prior art or not. Indeed, what is actually patented, and whether the patent actually protects anything useful or not.
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Old 09-05-2008, 02:34 PM   #32
MiamiBeachPatrol
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Okay,
I had a couple of correspondences yesterday with Reinhard regarding his product... and I've taken a cursory reading of the full text of his (their) U.S. patent.
I could go off on several tangents ... e.g. the patent office's failure to insist that ALL numeral references within the text actually appear in the drawings... my belief in the veracity of a point or two within Reinhard's emails but......... I won't. :-]

Suffice it to say that the main body of the patent appears (from my reading) designed to dissuade others from developing a similar product i.e. to use a Segway to carry a person wielding a Steadicam camera.
According to Reinhard "the heart of our invention is the legsaddel" .... (??? ... Any Germans reading this?)
As is typically the case, the patent wording is written in broad strokes... in my view simply trying to protect the niche market (i.e. of Steadicam operators) they appear to have found.
(Bob Keans or anyone interested... email me directly at MiamiBeachPatrol@aol.com, and I'll steer you to the actual patent... so YOU can do all the heavy lifting)

I could have spent hours re-reading it and going over the details, but as I have no desire to build a competing product, I declined to do so.

Having said that, it appears that Reinhard & company have put together a very utilitarian design.
According to Reinhard, Jackie Chan (the actor) uses their paired-down version ("the steering stick" as he called it) and is their "gatekeeper" to the China market. Also aboard their design team apparently, was/is Garrett Brown, the inventor of the Steadicam.

I've been involved, over the years, in building a couple of products from scratch. For me, the issue here is simply finding the best possible hands-free unit available... or, barring that, to have someone (other than me) build one.
To broadly paraphrase Dean Kamen referencing the Segway itself ... "It's not that difficult to build a two-wheel self-balancing machine.... the trick is to build one that's inherently safe and operates consistently in that manner". ---The earliest of Segway designs were extremely temperamental and often behaved erratically.

The real value, in my opinion, is often in the details... e.g. the comfort of the "leg cups" over the long haul (by the way, only one of Reinhard's is cupped... the other is flat), the ease in mounting/dismounting... all the little nuances that we don't even know to address until we've built maybe a half dozen or more prototypes... blah, blah, blah.

Although their U.S. patent wasn't actually granted until this past December (12/04/2007), clearly the body of their work, expressed in the detail of both drawings and text, indicate they've been utilizing (and selling)their product for years... (5 years according to Reinhard)... and I don't doubt that.

Moreover, because of what appears to be, a proliferation of "happy" Steadicam operators (including Jon Beattie) using their product, I'm inclined to go ahead and purchase it.
They really DO appear to know what they're doing (have done).

Here's the downside:
With the exchange rate from Euros to U.S. dollars........ including shipping.......... it's nearly a grand (around $950).

Jon, a couple of last things:
What's your experience over rough terrain... at top speed?
Do you wish you had a handlebar to grab on to at times? ---- And finally, if you'd be so good as to share what you believe are the pros/cons regarding Reinhard's "steering stick", I'll remember you in my Will.

Michael
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Old 09-05-2008, 02:52 PM   #33
Bob.Kerns
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The date was sufficient for me to locate it, by also searching for "Segway" in the description. (Otherwise there were 3581 patents on that date)

US Patent #7,303,032

I haven't read it yet.

There are 32 patents that reference "Segway", including what looks like it may be the SegHauler, and hydrogen power..
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Old 09-05-2008, 03:28 PM   #34
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Good luck Bob.... I'm sure you'll be more thorough (and patient) than I.

Michael
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:24 PM   #35
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Mike,
I can tell you Reinhard's system is worth every penny. I too got boned with the exchange rate. But with what I needed for Steadicam it was quite a bit more.

As for Reinhard's unit. It is really built like a panzer. The lean control in much more heavy duty than the original handle bar. You have a lot of options in setting the height, width and fore aft placement of the saddles.

I like it a few solid inches over the knee.

I find that with the handle bar I could hit 15mph. With the lean control it really keeps you at 12.5. At first i found I would bend my body in half forward to try and get up to speed. But that is totally wrong and is all pelvis.

I've road on rough bouncy, grassy ground no problem. I want to hit the beach next.

Honestly I have zero complaints about Reinhard's system. It is a quantum leap from a cut down handle bar with plexi.

I still need a skid plate, heavy duty kickstand and a hitch kit for a riskshaw.
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Old 09-06-2008, 01:54 PM   #36
MiamiBeachPatrol
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I thought I posted this last night. (It must have disappeared.)

Anyway Jon... thanks for all the info. --- You've sold me.

Unfortunately I'll have to wait.
I received another email from Reinhard yesterday.
They're temporarily out of supply i.e. they won't be getting any more
"steering sticks" (the paired-down version) for 6 weeks... maybe longer.

When they arrive I'll be getting one and will post my experience with it.

I'll be demo-ing it in the middle of the night... about 3 a.m. on Hollywood Beach as soon as it comes in. (That's in case something goes wrong... no one will see.) I'll let you know how it handles the sand moguls.

Again, to echo Karl, thanks for your input.

Michael
SegwayHollywood.com
SegwaySouthBeach.com
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Old 09-13-2008, 03:50 PM   #37
mark1qhorsey
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Question Lots of questions?

Great to hear that you like it. So does Jackie Chan apparently.

Have you noticed any erratic behaviors emerging in the i2 using
a cut down, modified lean steer with different weight from the original?

How are the leg steer cups for stepping off, forward as well as to the back?

Does the machine keep rolling when you step off?

Do you feel fatigue if you ride for awhile with legs planted into the steer cups?

Pictures show Chan "balancing" on it with his arms out. Was that for show
or is there some need to have arms out?

Is there a time-breaking problem from full speed to zero?

Thanks for your thoughts. Mark1


Quote:
Originally Posted by JBeattie View Post
Mike,
I can tell you Reinhard's system is worth every penny. I too got boned with the exchange rate. But with what I needed for Steadicam it was quite a bit more.

As for Reinhard's unit. It is really built like a panzer. The lean control in much more heavy duty than the original handle bar. You have a lot of options in setting the height, width and fore aft placement of the saddles.

I like it a few solid inches over the knee.

I find that with the handle bar I could hit 15mph. With the lean control it really keeps you at 12.5. At first i found I would bend my body in half forward to try and get up to speed. But that is totally wrong and is all pelvis.

I've road on rough bouncy, grassy ground no problem. I want to hit the beach next.

Honestly I have zero complaints about Reinhard's system. It is a quantum leap from a cut down handle bar with plexi.

I still need a skid plate, heavy duty kickstand and a hitch kit for a riskshaw.
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Old 09-14-2008, 12:25 AM   #38
JBeattie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark1qhorsey View Post
Great to hear that you like it. So does Jackie Chan apparently.

Have you noticed any erratic behaviors emerging in the i2 using
a cut down, modified lean steer with different weight from the original?

How are the leg steer cups for stepping off, forward as well as to the back?

Does the machine keep rolling when you step off?

Do you feel fatigue if you ride for awhile with legs planted into the steer cups?

Pictures show Chan "balancing" on it with his arms out. Was that for show
or is there some need to have arms out?

Is there a time-breaking problem from full speed to zero?

Thanks for your thoughts. Mark1

As for the jackie's arms. You don't have to do the tight rope arms out stance at all. You can have your arms anywhere you want, pockets, folded, out, over your head, whatever.

Stepping on is easy being that the steering is limited. Step offs the back are easy. You can step off the front, but I find that your CG shifting forward will make the unit "follow" you forward.

Little brushes of your leg against the steering stick don't effect you much. But the unit can move a little while getting off. Using the "8 ball" in the front allows you to hold the unit straight while getting on or off.

The saddles aren't in the way of moving on and off.

The first few days after riding for hours you will feel a little fatigue in your legs.

Reinhard's system may actually be alittle heavier than the standard handle bar. Its weight doesn't make my x2 feel any different to me.

getting up to speed is just as quick. You just have to remember to use your pelvis not your shoulders and waist to lean.
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