Chapter 4. Update: MDC and Simon Mall

[KSagal]

Originally Posted by rickb

Frank.................it's people like me? My general comment and point is that I see why public and private entities ban vehicles in general for certain events hosted in areas that are usually vehicle friendly when there are unusually high numbers of attendees. It seems to me that it's a general ban and not meant to ban those using them that have mobility issues and state issued placards with a few "Goofy exceptions" by some "Mickey Mouse" corporate lawyers.

I'm looking to purchase the right seg solutuion for my personal situation so I can keep up with my wife and you for that matter. It will be a godsend for me as well. 500 Segways at any one event may be to many and I understand why businesses may have safety & liability issues with this type of transportation in general. A few riders may not have your common sense. I don't own or manage a business and ADA is there for me not because of me.

Rick, I appreciate your position, and value your perspective, but it may be that you do not see what some of us see. I checked your profile, and it says you do not own a segway, but I cannot be sure.

One thing I noticed is that you called the segway a vehicle, and previously compared it to a golf cart. I think that once you get familiar with a segway, really familiar with it, you will realize it is not a vehicle. It does not act like a vehicle any more than your sneakers act like a vehicle. It acts like an extension of you, much more than a vehicle.

Another thing, you say that a place with 500 segways would be a problem. Considering the costs, and the uniqueness, I think that is an unreasonable assumption. Even if it were, would you feel that a business owner would be better off with 500 electric wheelchairs in that same crowd? How about 500 rascal or ez go scooters, or any of that sort? Even 500 manual wheelchairs in that crowd would all be far more dangerous, harder to manage, and consume far more space than the 500 segways. Besides, all the examples I mentioned are already protected by law, and cannot be denied.

When you speak of restrictions based on the machine, instead of based on the operation of that machine, you open a potential hole that will swallow a lot of innocent people, who would no longer be able to do simple things that others take for granted.

I have been in very crowded fairs and parks and festivals. It is easier on the segway than any wheelchair or most any other conveyance.

Check it out. I think you may be pleasantly surprised.

Have fun, glide more.

[IcanGlide]

Just for argument's sake, how many people should be allowed at an event, whether inside or out, that would allow a segway user to interact? A motorized wheelchair? A manual wheelchair?

How many people can attend an outdoor event before there are too many people for there to be anymore people allowed inside. Sounds ridiculus, but for me, my segway is pretty close to the same maneuverability as most people. There are exceptions, but let's keep it to interacting in crowds and public places.

I work in a place with lots of halls and doors. Many, many times I have been gliding alone in a hall when suddenly up ahead a door will open and someone will come out, not checking for anyone approaching because they are either texting or simply not paying attention. If I were in a wheelchair I would be invisible, but because I am on a Segway, it's my fault. In this case, it only takes one person for there to be too many for a Segway to be allowed.

Millions of cars travel highways every day passing each other sometimes only inches apart, but that's ok. Those same autos traverse parking lots, interspersed with pedestrians of all ages, horsepower not considered, but that's ok.

I don't mean to sound like I have a chip on my shoulder, I really don't, and it's not my intention for this to sound personal; but the "there's too many people in here" argument really gets my dander up.

I really hope you do get a Segway--you're going to love it. But be forewarned: you better prepare yourself; not all the public will embrace you and your new wheels. I've been handicapped for almost 49 years, a Segway user for five....there are a lot of cold, heartless people out there.

And you better hope this Disney appeal goes our way, or a wheelchair will be your only choice---again.

My best to you..........Frank

[rickb]

Tough crowd. I"ve been handicapped for 63 years.......enjoy life........will own a Segway (mobility device) soon.....not looking or expecting to be embraced.............respect and understand different views, and find the vast majority of people I meet are considerate, warm and good hearted. I have gained vast amounts of insight and knowledge from people sharing their experiences on this forum which I will use with my new found mobility and can live without Disney and the Magic Kingdom. My best to you all..................Rick

[Tarkus]

Originally Posted by rickb

Frank.................it's people like me? My general comment and point is that I see why public and private entities ban vehicles in general for certain events hosted in areas that are usually vehicle friendly when there are unusually high numbers of attendees. It seems to me that it's a general ban and not meant to ban those using them that have mobility issues and state issued placards with a few "Goofy exceptions" by some "Mickey Mouse" corporate lawyers.

I'm looking to purchase the right seg solutuion for my personal situation so I can keep up with my wife and you for that matter. It will be a godsend for me as well. 500 Segways at any one event may be to many and I understand why businesses may have safety & liability issues with this type of transportation in general. A few riders may not have your common sense. I don't own or manage a business and ADA is there for me not because of me.

These are not private entities we are talking about. Once the venue is allowing the general public in it is no longer private property under Title III of the ADA.

At that point they are "Places of Public Accomidation" per the ADA , and that requires abiding by the regulations set by the DOJ.

The problem with "Goofy and "Mickey" is that many places of public accommodations follow there lead in these matters. The rationale is that with Disneys legal team they must be correct. But they are not always correct . Disney has violated the ADA many many times Over the years.

Be Big,
AMAC

[rickb]

Originally Posted by KSagal

Rick, I appreciate your position, and value your perspective, but it may be that you do not see what some of us see. I checked your profile, and it says you do not own a segway, but I cannot be sure.

One thing I noticed is that you called the segway a vehicle, and previously compared it to a golf cart. I think that once you get familiar with a segway, really familiar with it, you will realize it is not a vehicle. It does not act like a vehicle any more than your sneakers act like a vehicle. It acts like an extension of you, much more than a vehicle.

Another thing, you say that a place with 500 segways would be a problem. Considering the costs, and the uniqueness, I think that is an unreasonable assumption. Even if it were, would you feel that a business owner would be better off with 500 electric wheelchairs in that same crowd? How about 500 rascal or ez go scooters, or any of that sort? Even 500 manual wheelchairs in that crowd would all be far more dangerous, harder to manage, and consume far more space than the 500 segways. Besides, all the examples I mentioned are already protected by law, and cannot be denied.

When you speak of restrictions based on the machine, instead of based on the operation of that machine, you open a potential hole that will swallow a lot of innocent people, who would no longer be able to do simple things that others take for granted.

I have been in very crowded fairs and parks and festivals. It is easier on the segway than any wheelchair or most any other conveyance.

Check it out. I think you may be pleasantly surprised.

Have fun, glide more.

Karl, Sorry...........I general referenced the Segway as a vehicle. A vehicle defined as a thing used for transporting people. The Segway is the ultimate people mover. Also, I wasn't comparing the Segway to a golf cart. If the venue was large enough (unlikely) I suppose there could be 500 Segways, 500 wheelchairs, 500 EZGo Scooters and many other conveyances for that matter and chaotic. The more conveyances in an uncontrolled pedestrian environment the more potential for problems. I have experienced this chaos in grocery store isles with three instore scooters. I never implied or agree with restrictions on any of these mobility devices displaying the state issued placard. Ultimately everybody should be able to Seg, skate, skateboard, bike, etc. in these spaces and then sadly I'd stay home.

I have spent some time on a Segway.............so no surprises here. I think if I'm nice to people after climbing on board my Segway I'll get nice back most of the time. I am looking forward to your have fun, glide more philosophy. Thanks for your experienced insight.

[KSagal]

Originally Posted by rickb

Karl, Sorry...........I general referenced the Segway as a vehicle. A vehicle defined as a thing used for transporting people. The Segway is the ultimate people mover. Also, I wasn't comparing the Segway to a golf cart. If the venue was large enough (unlikely) I suppose there could be 500 Segways, 500 wheelchairs, 500 EZGo Scooters and many other conveyances for that matter and chaotic. The more conveyances in an uncontrolled pedestrian environment the more potential for problems. I have experienced this chaos in grocery store isles with three instore scooters. I never implied or agree with restrictions on any of these mobility devices displaying the state issued placard. Ultimately everybody should be able to Seg, skate, skateboard, bike, etc. in these spaces and then sadly I'd stay home.

I have spent some time on a Segway.............so no surprises here. I think if I'm nice to people after climbing on board my Segway I'll get nice back most of the time. I am looking forward to your have fun, glide more philosophy. Thanks for your experienced insight.

Rick,

I will not pretend to know where you are coming from. I do not know you, nor your experiences. But neither do you know mine.

I agree that 500 of any of those items mentioned would likely cause chaos. But my question was if it would be worse or better with segways, and I can tell you absolutely it would be better. Same as your situation with the store scooters vs 3 segways in the same space. MUCH better with the segways.

I am confident that once you get a segway, and get used to it (a far shorter time than any conveyance listed on our posts ) you will look back on your views in these last few posts and realize how much you did not know.

But to each their own.

By the way, if you do some research, you might find that a traffic and safety study done a number of years ago rated the segway very well in safety, stopping distances, visibility and much more when compared to bikes, wheelchairs, and much more. You cannot say that with the skates, skateboards, bikes and more that you listed.

Good debate. Keep smiling.

[Rolacoy]

Hey Karl, where could that traffic and safety study be found. Seems that it would be a good tool. I sent Mr. Tucker of the Tyler Zoo an e-mail last night outlining my experience at the zoo, of course his worry is safety.

I think that the Segway was called a vehicle and you compared the Segway to a pair of shoes. I pointed out to Mr. Tucker that riding a Segway is like riding a horse. After a while you and the horse become one, maybe even like the horses in the movie Avatar.

I have only been riding for about 6 months and I have learned to feel everything the Segway feels. At first I would move the leanstear, the Segway would turn and my body would catch-up. I learned to hold my elbows aganist my hips, when I lean my body the Segway responds.

[rickb]

Karl.............I did the research long ago to include test rides which is why I'm a Segway fan and will be making a purchase soon. All I said initially is that I understand why event planners (whoever) lump "all" devices into a "general" ban at certain events. Do I agree with them when it comes to the Segway.......no. They know even less than I do. Most will still allow Segways when used as a mobility aide when displaying the state placard. Those are the events that I will be attending and feel welcome. Should my Segway and I be able to attend and feel welcome at all events/businesses........yes. Was I comparing a Segway to a grocery store scooter.............no. Maybe we will bump into one another on our Segways at one of these events sooner or later. "It's a small world afterall".

[DarthSegVator]

Safety Studies, white papers and policy statements can be located here:

http://www.draft.org/EducationAdvoca...5/Default.aspx

[KSagal]

Originally Posted by rickb

Karl.............I did the research long ago to include test rides which is why I'm a Segway fan and will be making a purchase soon. All I said initially is that I understand why event planners (whoever) lump "all" devices into a "general" ban at certain events. Do I agree with them when it comes to the Segway.......no. They know even less than I do. Most will still allow Segways when used as a mobility aide when displaying the state placard. Those are the events that I will be attending and feel welcome. Should my Segway and I be able to attend and feel welcome at all events/businesses........yes. Was I comparing a Segway to a grocery store scooter.............no. Maybe we will bump into one another on our Segways at one of these events sooner or later. "It's a small world afterall".

It is a small world, and getting smaller all the time. I would enjoy meeting you at some point. I have met a great deal of very cool people since buying a segway back in 2003.