Canton, Texas Trade Days, How it went.

[Rolacoy]

Here is "the short of it". I was told I could not ride on Canton, Texas city property. I bucked "City Hall" and was allowed to ride.

Below is "the long of it".

We arrived at our RV campsite in Canton, Texas about 2:30pm on Thursday, 03-31-11. If you remember I had called the City of Canton and asked if I could ride Segways there, they said no. There reason was that they were too dangerous, that on trade days there the city was very crowded with peace, kids and pets. The campgrounds that we stayed at is part of the Canton State Park. I unloaded the Segways as soon as I arrived. At 3:30pm I was gliding on property that is owned by the city of Canton, I was stopped by one of their security people and told that Segways were not allowed on city property. The Trade Days cover several acres that are not owned by the city. He said that I could use the Segway on that property. I did not have a handicap designation of any kind in sight. I had decided to test it without first. When I told him that I was handicapped he said that was all he needed to know and that I could ride on city property. I asked if I needed to show him my card, he said no.

I decided to go "uptown" and see what happened. The county court house is uptown and probably 8 blocks form where I got stopped. I continued to glide around the trade areas, no one else said anything to me. I went back to the RV and took a nap. After the nap I glided on city property and other areas that were not owned by the city. In the evening my brother-in-law and I rode all over the area that is not owned by the city with no problems.

On Friday morning as soon as it was light I went back uptown to where highway 19 and highway 64 cross. After crossing highway 19 I rode along the North side of on a sidewalk to another area called the Old Mill Marketplace. Map:

http://www.cantontradedays.com/maps/index.html

I also went across highway 64 to Dog Alley where they have all kinds of animals for sale. After leaving there I went back west on Tyler Street, downtown and back thru the city owned trade area and into the area not owned by the city, if you look at the map it is the area where most of the pavilions are located. I had just crossed back into the city owned area at 8:00am when I was stopped by a lady who told me Segways were banned on city property. I told her that I was handicapped ( I had put a sticker on the bag on the front of the Segway by this time). She told me that I had already been told to stay off city property. I told on the contrary that a man had told me I could ride on the city property since I was handi-capped. I also told her that the ADA law had changed and gave her a copy of a paper that I had. She told me that the city had owned the city park for 150 years and that ADA laws did not apply.

She was not belligerent but I would say she was unreasonable, but very emphatic and making sure that I understood that she had authority. There was no reasoning with her. There was an older man with her on the golf cart. I was very nervous talking with her, but determined to have my rights. I went back into the non-city area. I could cross it and get within 50' of the RV. So I went back to the RV and parked the Segway. I walked to a nearby office for the city part of the trade days, about 200' from the RV. I went to the window and told the lady what had happened and asked if I could talk the the supervisor. She told me that Linda Hatfield was the supervisor who had stopped me. I left my name address and cell phone number asking that Ms Hatfield call me. This was about 9:30am.

When I had not received a call by about 2:30pm, after lunch and a nap, I went to the city office by car, I explained what had happened to the lady at the desk and asked to speak to the mayor. The mayor was not in, she was going to call the city manager but someone said he was not in either. So she called the assistant city manager, Lonny Chuck. He told the lady at the city office that since I already had the Segway in Canton to let me ride it in the City of Canton. I asked the lady in the city office, what if I get stopped and she told me tell them that Lonny Chuck said that I could ride.

I spent 10 or 15 minutes in the city office talking to two or three ladies about how Segways operated. It seems like they always bring up the fact that the "inventor" was killed on a Segway. I explained as best I knew that it was not the inventor, but an Englishman who had bought the company. And the fact that he was killed while politely getting out of the way of some people walking. I also stated that Segway riders are told that everyone has the right-of-way over Segway riders. I was told that when I bought ours and I always tell people and practice that rule. I don't want anyone to say that I cut them off or was rude while using a Segway. If I may quote Karl "Each Road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.".

I returned to the RV and walked back to the office that was in the trade area. I told the lady behind the window that Lonny Chuck had given me the OK to ride on city property. She was somewhat "Huffy" and told me that he would not have said that. I stated that he did and to call the city office. She said that he was her boss and would not have said that, I repeated "call the city office". She left the window and spoke with someone, came back to the window, she did not have time to call. She said "I apologize, you can ride on city property, but you are responsible for any accidents. I have full insurance coverage on our Segways.

I left my name and cell phone number with the lady and told her that I would very happy to show the Linda Hatfield how a Segway works, show her how to ride one and ride with her. I told the lady that if Linda Hatfield had a Segway she could do her job of supervising the other security people much better, because she could cover the trade area much quicker and be a head taller than everyone else so she could see better. The security people ride golf carts which putts their heads below the croud.

I tried to talk to her and explain a little bit about Segways, but she was not much interested. I was very nice in speaking with all of the city officials. She said that they were going to contact Austin, Texas and get a ruling. The rest of the time I glided where ever I wanted, saw many of the security people and none bothered me. I bet they were watching me so I was very careful, polite and courteous. I went back to the office in the trade area Saturday to speak the the lady who was there. My wife does a lot of sewing and makes what she calls a "Wonder Wallet", it is made out of cloth, has several pockets with a Velcro seal, it is just big enough to hold a couple of credit cards, some change and a few bills. She makes them by the hundreds and gives them away. She sells some if someone request several. The reason for going to the window was to give the lady one and leave one for Linda Hatfield.

As it turned out the window was being worked by the lady that I had met downtown at the city office. I ended up giving her 5 of the Wonder Wallets with instructions to give one to both of the before mentioned ladies, one for herself and what ever she wanted with the outer two. I also gave one to one of the security men who had been very friendly to me that was working the gate. I feel sure that Linda Hathway was not happy that I had went over here head and got her decision reversed. I hoped the Wonder Wallets would make her feel better and let her know that I had no had feelings toward her, she was just doing her job. She could have been moor reasonable. We left on Sunday a little before 10:00am. I was disappointed that Linda Hatfield never contacted me for a demo.

[Rolacoy]

Now, here is how I found gliding thru the crowd, the buildings and all of the trade area grounds. Much of the surface, walkways, roads and inside the buildings was not smooth gliding. The trade days have developed over the years with out much long range planning. It is pretty much a hodgepodge of roads, buildings, booths, un-level dirt, asphalt and cement and at lest one creek runs there the trade area.

The two biggest obstacles that I ran into was the North West corner of the intersection of 19 and 64. I waited thru at least three light changes before I discovered that I had to push a button to get the pedestrian walk light to work. The sidewalk is fairly new and in good shape, but the wheelchair ramp in the curb is about ten feet from the button. Between those two points the cement changes levels at least 5 times and you have to reach the button across a railing then turn around on a sloping sidewalk, it is narrow too. You could easily go over the curb or lose your balance. It must be just as hard in a wheelchair. It could have been designed better, but it seems that they tried their best. The other place was going into Dog Alley. Some one had partly buried a 2" x 6" or 2" x 8" to stop a wash. I came up on it too quick but was able to find a place where only about 3" was above the ground and I "jumped" over it.

Gliding thru the crowds was very little trouble. There are wheeled carts like WalMart has for people who can not walk all over the place. They rent them on the grounds and people bring their own. They take up two to three times as much space as a Segway and some are driven poorly. Some of them are pulling trailers with people riding or junk. even an old door riding cross ways. Only security and maybe vendors are allowed to ride golf carts, but there are cars and trucks everyplace.

I NEVER had one problem with people, children or pets. I NEVER had one incident of touching a person or an object while I was gliding. I went every place. Inside the buildings was full of people almost shoulder to shoulder. I must say I was not completely comfortable inside the buildings. However, I had no problem with the things that were in the buildings or the people. It seems that a Segway is very sensitive to it's soundings and I think that if anything comes into contact with it more that a plant leaf or someones pant leg the rider would feel the contact. I never felt anything.

Over all I had a very good time which surprised me, because I have no interest in most of the stuff that was for sale. I spent most of my time explaining to 50 to 100 people how a Segways works and how well it got me around and how much I enjoyed riding one. I will wire the City of Canton, Texas a very nice letter, not this long.

My feet are killing me, but it was worth it!

[goldwing_midland_tx]

Thanks for the report. Way to stay after your rights. Glad it ended up going your way.

[KSagal]

great report. Good job.

[Rolacoy]

I e-mailed a letter to the city manager and a copy to his assistant. It will be interesting to see if they respond.

[Lily Kerns]

Originally Posted by Rolacoy

I e-mailed a letter to the city manager and a copy to his assistant. It will be interesting to see if they respond.

In your letter, did you mention the problem with reaching the pedestrian light button at the crosswalk? I have no idea what the standards they have to meet are, but if it would be difficult or dangerous for someone in a wheelchair to access then it surely would be a violation....

[Rolacoy]

I was waiting to see you to check in on this, Lily. I am not sure if the button would be a violation, I don't know the rules. The cement was fairly new and surly who ever did the work knew the rules. It was difficult and a person could roll and go off the curb if they were not careful. This is the the letter that I wrote:
_______________


04-04-11

To:
City Manager of Canton, Texas

Dear Mr.

My wife's sister and her husband who live in Kansas City spend Winters in the South in their motor home. They wanted to come to the Canton Trade Days on their way back home this Spring. Also another sister and a friend drove down from Bartlesville, Oklahoma to go. My daughter. my wife and I also came in our motor home. There were seven people total. We stayed in the city RV park near the Log Cabin Office. Over all we had a very good time and the weather was great.

I had called two or three weeks before we came to check on RV parking. At that time I asked about using our Segways while we were at the trade days and was told that they could not be used. However, on the 15th of March there were some new laws that went into effect for the handicapped. My wife and I both have handicap placards. I assumed that the new laws allowing us to use Segways as our mobility devices would allow us to ride the Segways at the trade days.

We got to our RV campsite about 2:00pm. I was stopped about 2:30pm on Thursday by one of your security men. He told me that Segways were not allowed on city property. I explained to him that I was handicapped and he told me that I could ride the Segway. Friday morning about 8:00am I was stopped by a security lady on a golf cart, there was a man with her. She told me that I could not ride on city property and that I had already been told that I could not ride. I told her that a security man had told me I could on Thursday evening, because I had a handicap. I was displaying a handicap sticker at the time she stopped me. She stated that I would have to leave the area owned by the city.

I left the city owned area and went back to our RV. I did have to cross back onto city property since our RV was about 50' inside the city line. I walked from our RV to the log cabin office and asked if I could speak to the supervisor of security and was informed that the lady who had told me to leave, Linda Hatfield was head of security. I left my name and phone number asking her to call me. I spent some time in the trade area North of the city property. After lunch and a nap I had not received a call so I drove to the city and asked to speak to the mayor or someone who could discuss this matter with me. I was told that the mayor was not in the office. The lady at the city office started to call the city manager, but someone said they had just came from his office and he was not there. The lady called the Assistant city manager, Lonny Cluck who said, since I already had the Segways at Canton, to go ahead and ride it.

I went back to the log cabin office to let them know that Mr. Cluck had told me I could ride the Segway. I went there, because I had been told that the security office was in the log cabin building. The lady at the window told me I could not ride it, that Mr. Cluck was her boss and he would not have told me that I could ride. I asked her to call that city office to confirm what I had told her. She left the window, but did not have time to have made a call, someone there must have confirmed what I told her. She came back to the window and said, I apologize, you can ride the Segway. I had no more confrontations with security.

Here are my experiences riding in the crowd, the buildings and all of the trade area grounds. Much of the surface, walkways, roads and inside the buildings was not smooth riding.

The two biggest obstacles that I ran into was the North West corner of the intersection of 19 and 64. I waited thru at least three light changes before I discovered that I had to push a button to get the pedestrian walk light to work. The sidewalk is fairly new and in good shape, but the wheelchair ramp in the curb is about ten feet from the button. Between those two points the cement changes angles at least 5 times and you have to reach the button across a railing then turn around on a sloping sidewalk, it is narrow also. You could easily go over the curb or lose your balance. It must be just as hard in a wheelchair. The other place was going into Dog Alley. Some one had partly buried a 2" x 6" or 2" x 8" to stop a wash. I came up on it before I knew it was there but was able to find a place where only about 3" was above the ground and I "jumped" over it.

Riding thru the crowds was very little trouble. There are many scooters like WalMart has for people who can not walk all over the place. They rent them on the grounds and people bring their own. They take up two to three times as much space as a Segway and some are driven poorly. Also the visibility is much better from a Swgway. Some of them are pulling trailers with people riding or junk, even an old door riding cross ways. Only security and maybe vendors are allowed to ride golf carts, but there are cars and trucks everyplace.

I NEVER had one problem with people, children or pets. I NEVER had one incident of touching a person or an object while I was riding. I went every place. Inside the buildings was full of people almost shoulder to shoulder. I must say I was not completely comfortable inside the buildings, but the discomfort was not from riding the Segway, I just do not like to be that crowded in with other people. However, I had no problem with the things that were in the buildings or the people. A Segway is very sensitive to it's soundings, if anything comes into contact with it more than a plant leaf or someones pant leg the rider will feel the contact. I never felt anything.

Over all I had a very good time which surprised me, because I have little interest in most of the stuff that was for sale. The family members who were with me loved the shopping. I spent most of my time explaining to 50 to 100 people how a Segways works, how well it got me around the grounds and how much I enjoyed riding a Segway. When you are standing on a Segway you can see much better. A Segway would be a great ride for your head of security. They could get around much quicker, see much better and stay in contact with the security people under them. You could send someone into Dallas to take one of the Segway tours to see how they preform. Or if someone is over in the Waskom, Texas area I would be glad to show them how to ride and what a Segway can do. I offered to do so while I was in Canton.

In conclusion, I think that you will see more handicapped people with Segways. I am not sure how the changes in the law will effect events such as yours, but the law seems to give people who need a mobility device the option of using a Segway. I thank you for allowing me to ride the Segway this past weekend, I could not have enjoyed the event without the Segway. Feel free to contact me if you have any comments or questions.

[Lily Kerns]

And the ADA rules most definitely DO apply to city governments under Title II. For the last, what is it, 21 years! (as far as I know. I really wasn't worrying too much about it back then. <G>)

Education needed!

[Bob.Kerns]

Originally Posted by Lily Kerns

And the ADA rules most definitely DO apply to city governments under Title II. For the last, what is it, 21 years! (as far as I know. I really wasn't worrying too much about it back then. <G>)

Education needed!

Heh. No surprise there. I find a great number of state employees believe the US 14th Amendment doesn't apply to them. I have even been directly told that it doesn't.

It's all about the states! Even the last clause gives Congress the authority to enforce it against the states.

The title of Title II is Part 35 Nondiscrimination on the Basis of Disability in State and Local Government Services.