I wonder what would happen if... - Page 3

KSagal · 02-11-2009, 01:42 PM

I am not so sure that he is not trying to start a fight, but it is still a reasonable potential argument...

However, since they are a party in the dispute before the court, I do not think that their own research, not having been released to public scrutiny, would be considered objective...

In order to be valid, it needs to be considered objective. That is why industries hire outside firms to do most testing.

Clearly federal studies and their results will at least be weighted as heavily as any self serving, private statistics that Disney may offer up...

JohnM · 02-11-2009, 02:35 PM

Sooo.............

Why is Disney being such jerks on this issue?

I don't think its a rental revenue thing. Just not enough money to be made to offset the bad karma.

I keep coming back to some safety issue, perhaps specific to their unique environment, that they may be reluctant to share with the public. But what?

Help me understand.

Gihgehls · 02-11-2009, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnM

Sooo.............

Why is Disney being such jerks on this issue?

I don't think its a rental revenue thing. Just not enough money to be made to offset the bad karma.

I keep coming back to some safety issue, perhaps specific to their unique environment, that they may be reluctant to share with the public. But what?

Help me understand.

Your guess is as good as mine. Segways don't explode if they crash.

KSagal · 02-11-2009, 03:02 PM

Anyone is guessing who expresses an opinion here... I have no reason to think that they have any safety issues at all, at least none based on actual experience, or documented legitimate cases...

Clearly there are more cases of wheelchairs hurting people (not in the wheelchair) than segways doing the same, if for no other reason, the shear numbers of units out there...

To guess that they are fighting in court that the must have a valid safety issue is silly.

I can guess that it may simply be that they do not want to be dictated to. It may be that since the general public continues to be so frightened of what they do not understand, and Disney knows this, they are afraid that their patrons will not like seeing segways among them. (This is not supportable by law)

I guess it is simply a control factor. There are a finite number of miles the average Disney patron will walk. There are eateries and drinkeries every 22 feet at Disney. They want people to walk slowly, progress slowly, and get tired and hungry. They do not want people to be efficient in their travel, to be comfortable, rested and quick.

Further, there is a very real factor that if their patrons, especially those who's feet hurt and are tired, see another on a segway, rested, relaxed, moving in comfort, there will be a fall out. Others will want to do this, their concession revenue will suffer, and more and more people will want to take advantage of this method of motivation...

There is still a real bias in the world, and it is not missing at Disney, that feels that handicapped people should know their place. They have to look uncomfortable and sick. They cannot look like they are healthy and having a good time... There are people who will complain about a person on a segway, until they find that person has MS, then they feel bad... (even then, some do not feel bad)

I beleive this just comes down to simple closed mindedness...

Gihgehls · 02-11-2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSagal

I guess it is simply a control factor. There are a finite number of miles the average Disney patron will walk. There are eateries and drinkeries every 22 feet at Disney. They want people to walk slowly, progress slowly, and get tired and hungry. They do not want people to be efficient in their travel, to be comfortable, rested and quick.

This is a great point. I hadn't thought of this before.

Tarkus · 02-11-2009, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnM

Sooo.............

Why is Disney being such jerks on this issue?

I don't think its a rental revenue thing. Just not enough money to be made to offset the bad karma.

I keep coming back to some safety issue, perhaps specific to their unique environment, that they may be reluctant to share with the public. But what?

Help me understand.

First you need to understand the history of Disneys presence in Florida. Here they are king. They bought the land through a series of deals that were "questionable" but not illegal. All with the help of the politicians of the day. They had to fill that swamp.

They have there own little "Vatican City" right here in the middle of Florida. Research Reedy Creek Improvement District. The have high power over that area.

You see they are used to being King, thats it, period. They hold heavy clout in the Orlando Media. Nobody wants to take on 'The Mouse"

Well they are not as "squeaky clean" as they want you to believe. Research "Team Rodent" for some funny but interesting info about Disney.

They have no safety info IMO, if they had studies they would put them forth and this would be finished, done. You should think of why they would want to settle, they don't settle often.

You see the are so good at the spin that they have you believing that they correct in their decision to defy the ADA.

And you believe that just because it's Disney, Brilliant.

Be Big,
AMAC

KSagal · 02-11-2009, 08:15 PM

Alan,

I agree with what you have said about Disney, and more. It is indeed an interesting history, including permits for the nuclear stuff that the state of Florida has already given up authority over...

I do not agree as to why JohnM believes they must have a safety reason, if he does... (I do not intend to speak to what he believes)

I believe that over the years he has established in my mind a clear predisposition to certain views, and this just fits it well... Kind of like coming to a conclusion, then looking for items to justify it...

Of course, my opinions are no more or less valid than anyone elses...

Tarkus · 02-11-2009, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSagal

Alan,

I agree with what you have said about Disney, and more. It is indeed an interesting history, including permits for the nuclear stuff that the state of Florida has already given up authority over...

I do not agree as to why JohnM believes they must have a safety reason, if he does... (I do not intend to speak to what he believes)

I believe that over the years he has established in my mind a clear predisposition to certain views, and this just fits it well... Kind of like coming to a conclusion, then looking for items to justify it...

Of course, my opinions are no more or less valid than anyone elses...

Karl,

You are one of the few that understand just how powerful Disney is here. I left the nuclear stuff out for fear nobody would believe me. Not to mention that they are exempt from many laws that other amusement ride operators have to abide by.

JohnM is alright. His comments were thought out, although I believe that when one says " I'm not trying to start a fight", they are in fact trying to at least poke a stick in ones cage.

He makes my point with this statement:

"Maybe, just maybe, Disney is basing their opinions on +6 years of Segway usage on their own property; a couple hundred units used by both trained employees performing their jobs and novice guests on tours. Perhaps they have more real life experience in their particular theme park venue than DRAFT or SegChatters can even imagine."

Right there he shows that he has taken the bait, or cheese in this case. Just because it's DISNEY the rest of the world is naive and has no chance.

It's not his fault, Disney has branded "niceness" and the people fall for it.

What I do find astounding is that there are people out there who will fold and crumble instead of fight, even if it's against Goliath, for their rights. I'm referring to the Plaintiffs and their attorneys, not JohnM.

To try to sell out an entire group of people with disabilities for, in this case a trip to the "Rat Hole", is unconscionable.

I expect that from the attorneys, but not from others with mobility problems. It's like selling out a family member.

So now it is our battle. Didn't ask for it but we are the only ones willing to do it. When I say "our" battle I don't mean just DRAFT because DRAFT is only as strong as it's membership. From the emails I have received we have a strong group out there, unseen until now but ready to fight.

Be Big,
AMAC

wwhopper · 02-11-2009, 10:35 PM

So you loose all of your money and only come out with that Happy Feeling as a final result. Or as my neighbor who has two kids says, they hook up an industrial vacum to your credit card and that is that!

Remember that Disney is one of Segway's largest Customers - though I would bet that DRAFT and it's Segs4Vets program will take on that moniker this year.

It is their private property and they get to do what they want with it, and the public just should pay to have the privledge of visiting, and just smile and shut up!

If you want to vote with your dollars, do not patronize places that are not Segway Friendly, that is what I do!

JohnM · 02-12-2009, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarkus

You see the are so good at the spin that they have you believing that they correct in their decision to defy the ADA.

And you believe that just because it's Disney, Brilliant.

Be Big,
AMAC

Let's see...
I call Disney 'jerks' and question their motivation.

You reply that I believe they are correct in their decision to defy the ADA, just because they're Disney.

Where the heck did that come from? I never stated any such belief. Is there some misunderstanding about my use of the word 'jerks'?

02-11-2009, 01:42 PM	#21
KSagal Glides a lot, talks more... Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Pelham, NH, USA. Posts: 10,356	I am not so sure that he is not trying to start a fight, but it is still a reasonable potential argument... However, since they are a party in the dispute before the court, I do not think that their own research, not having been released to public scrutiny, would be considered objective... In order to be valid, it needs to be considered objective. That is why industries hire outside firms to do most testing. Clearly federal studies and their results will at least be weighted as heavily as any self serving, private statistics that Disney may offer up... __________________ Karl Ian Sagal To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin) Bene factum melior bene dictum Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.

02-11-2009, 02:35 PM	#22
JohnM Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: ManchVegas, NH Posts: 2,148	Sooo............. Why is Disney being such jerks on this issue? I don't think its a rental revenue thing. Just not enough money to be made to offset the bad karma. I keep coming back to some safety issue, perhaps specific to their unique environment, that they may be reluctant to share with the public. But what? Help me understand. __________________ JohnM Anything worth doing for 2 hours is 10 times more worthwhile if done for 20 hours. RUSA #235 UMCA #3877 To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

02-11-2009, 03:02 PM	#24
KSagal Glides a lot, talks more... Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Pelham, NH, USA. Posts: 10,356	Anyone is guessing who expresses an opinion here... I have no reason to think that they have any safety issues at all, at least none based on actual experience, or documented legitimate cases... Clearly there are more cases of wheelchairs hurting people (not in the wheelchair) than segways doing the same, if for no other reason, the shear numbers of units out there... To guess that they are fighting in court that the must have a valid safety issue is silly. I can guess that it may simply be that they do not want to be dictated to. It may be that since the general public continues to be so frightened of what they do not understand, and Disney knows this, they are afraid that their patrons will not like seeing segways among them. (This is not supportable by law) I guess it is simply a control factor. There are a finite number of miles the average Disney patron will walk. There are eateries and drinkeries every 22 feet at Disney. They want people to walk slowly, progress slowly, and get tired and hungry. They do not want people to be efficient in their travel, to be comfortable, rested and quick. Further, there is a very real factor that if their patrons, especially those who's feet hurt and are tired, see another on a segway, rested, relaxed, moving in comfort, there will be a fall out. Others will want to do this, their concession revenue will suffer, and more and more people will want to take advantage of this method of motivation... There is still a real bias in the world, and it is not missing at Disney, that feels that handicapped people should know their place. They have to look uncomfortable and sick. They cannot look like they are healthy and having a good time... There are people who will complain about a person on a segway, until they find that person has MS, then they feel bad... (even then, some do not feel bad) I beleive this just comes down to simple closed mindedness... __________________ Karl Ian Sagal To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin) Bene factum melior bene dictum Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.

02-11-2009, 08:15 PM	#27
KSagal Glides a lot, talks more... Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Pelham, NH, USA. Posts: 10,356	Alan, I agree with what you have said about Disney, and more. It is indeed an interesting history, including permits for the nuclear stuff that the state of Florida has already given up authority over... I do not agree as to why JohnM believes they must have a safety reason, if he does... (I do not intend to speak to what he believes) I believe that over the years he has established in my mind a clear predisposition to certain views, and this just fits it well... Kind of like coming to a conclusion, then looking for items to justify it... Of course, my opinions are no more or less valid than anyone elses... __________________ Karl Ian Sagal To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin) Bene factum melior bene dictum Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.

02-11-2009, 10:35 PM	#29
wwhopper Advanced Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Washington, DC, USA. Posts: 4,894	Disney is nothing more than a casino without gambling So you loose all of your money and only come out with that Happy Feeling as a final result. Or as my neighbor who has two kids says, they hook up an industrial vacum to your credit card and that is that! Remember that Disney is one of Segway's largest Customers - though I would bet that DRAFT and it's Segs4Vets program will take on that moniker this year. It is their private property and they get to do what they want with it, and the public just should pay to have the privledge of visiting, and just smile and shut up! If you want to vote with your dollars, do not patronize places that are not Segway Friendly, that is what I do! __________________ Will W Hopper DCSEG Washington, DC, U.S.A.

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