CA Acadamy of Sciences -- NO GO

[Tarkus]

Originally Posted by Bob.Kerns

The extra wheel idea was intended as a rhetorical device / prop. I'm certain it would NOT work, but it would possibly, in some purely hypothetical circumstances, force them to come up with a reason you can work with, and illustrate that the stated reasons are not the actual reasons.

Sort of along the lines "but it HAS three wheels. Can we get serious?" The ADA requirements for exclusion on safety grounds are pretty stringent:



In other words, stating that it is dangerous because it has two wheels does not meet legal muster. Changing the number of wheels does not change the risk. (Actually, I can see a third wheel forward mitigating a hypothetical risk of excessive forward acceleration, but...)

I understand where you are coming from. When I said they have been tried and failed, I didn't mean extra wheels would not function, I made several that worked very well. My point is that you can dress it up but it's still a Segway.

Based on that people and places will simply "create" another reason to deny access. Trust me when I tell you that as I've been around the block a few times on this one.

You see to you and I the Law is clear cut. We can post about "Direct threat", "Reasonable Accomodations", "Modification of practices and procedures" but the fact remains that those who simply won't comply with the law will just find another excuse. They, and their legal staff simply don't care that they are in violation.

Again, they already know they are in violation but don't give a rats azz. They will create reasons to deny access as long as nobody holds their hands to the fire.

That fire may come from different directions. Some will be Lawsuits and others will be forced on them by the DOJ.

Keep up the fight.

Be Big,
Alan

[Bill Seright]

After reading this thread my spouse, who was a newspaper reporter in the Bay Area for over a decade, made telephone calls to the California Academy of Sciences and to the Mayor's ADA Compliance Office as well as to politicians he knows who are still in local government.

The mayor's office and the politicians all said they were basically unaware the ADA had no list of approved devices and that California had listed the Segway as an approved device. The woman in the mayor's office was ticked off that they relied on the woman at CA AofS to be keeping up on those issues and that a disabled Segway user should never have been barred from using their Segway anywhere when California law states CITIES may restrict their use and the City has not restricted their use.

Bet next time you get to use it.

William Seright

[Bob.Kerns]

Bill, thank you, and please thank your spouse for me. I can't begin to say how much I appreciate his putting in all that effort on my behalf! Next time you're out this way, let me know; I'd love to treat you both to some Sushi or something!

I'll make an effort to get in there soon. I'll also be sending a letter of my own for the record as well, as well as to further the educational value of the situation. I'll keep you all posted.

This is what is so great about the internet -- the people you reach, the connections you make, and people helping people.

I'm a bit puzzled by one bit in your message (which shouldn't really affect this anyway, being an ADA issue):

...and the City has not restricted their use.

Since, to my surprise, someone here pointed me at an item in the city code passed back in March of this year, re-restricting Segways from sidewalks? That apparently nobody -- not even Willie Brown, whom I encountered while on my Segway -- seems aware of?

I've been meaning to dig into the history there, find out who proposed it, why it's not known?

[jgbackes]

The city has a ban on Segways on the sidewalk, the Mayor's office has extended an exception for people with disabilities.

[Bill Seright]

Originally Posted by Bob.Kerns

Bill, thank you, and please thank your spouse for me. I can't begin to say how much I appreciate his putting in all that effort on my behalf!

Don't think anything of it because that's just the kind of thing he does. He's called other newspaper reporters from California to New York when ADA issues came up about the Segway filling them in on how a Segway works and why for some disabilities they are more beneficial than a wheelchair.

He told me something funny a couple of weeks back. Last year he had some problems with one of the locations a national chain of bookstores had near our Phoenix area home. It was pretty ugly and the local district management and even a national vice president were taking the book store manager's side in banning his Segway. Their solution was for him to call ahead to the store and they'd have a wheelchair waiting for him. On the Wednesday 8 days before Thanksgiving he wrote a lengthy e-mail concerning the situation being in violation of Arizona state law and named all the people he had talked to with that store in the week or so since the incident. I should also mention he went back into the store once after the incident happened was again told to leave and told the manager on duty then that she was going to have to call the police. He wrote this long e-mail and sent it to the Vice President of Finance and hinted there could be two or three disabled Segway users outside the chains local stores on the Friday after Thanksgiving.

The day after he sent that email the chain backed down and changed their policy nationally and officially.

We moved here and he started going down to another of the chains stores here in Atlanta. After the third time or so he told a customer service manager he was surprised no one associated with the store had asked anything about it.

The woman told him: We probably would have but last year in Phoenix some guy on a Segway threatened to sue us and the national policy got changed.

The spouse didn't tell her he was that guy.

He's gone everywhere he's wanted to in Atlanta on The Professor but he hasn't been asked to leave anywhere including WalMart.

William Seright

[Bob.Kerns]

Originally Posted by jgbackes

The city has a ban on Segways on the sidewalk, the Mayor's office has extended an exception for people with disabilities.

Yes, that was my (current) understanding. At first I thought, perhaps Bill meant to type "has not restricted their use by persons with disabilities"? But he mentions that CITIES may restrict their use, which doesn't align.

I'm not being ungrateful here, just trying to achieve full understanding of how the conversation with the city folk went!

But I'm still interested in knowing how the re-ban (for non-disabled) came to be. This ban (original and reinstatement) have led to me being harassed on NUMEROUS occasions by people who believe me illegal, and feel it their moral duty to make me feel shame. (I have yet to witness the much more numerous bikers and skateboarders and scooterfolk and such receive similar treatment!)

[Bill Seright]

Originally Posted by Bob.Kerns

I'm not being ungrateful here, just trying to achieve full understanding of how the conversation with the city folk went!

I posted a message further detailing what was said but the moderators have not yet chosen to make that message available and I can think of only one reason because it paints my spouse in a favorable light. The moderators here have once again banned my spouse and any message that seems to imply my spouse is capable of doing good ends up getting killed, just as I'm sure this message will be.

William Seright

[Persona]

Thanks all for responding to my post regarding my issue with the Cal Academy of Sciences.

As a group we have a better chance of achieving our goals to insure our rights than as any one individual. Your collective effort to review my post (and experience) and use the information to communicate and educate those
responsible for making good, reasonable, unambiguous policy (as entrusted to insure our rights) will go a long way to evolve our cause.

I always take the same approach when needing to use my mobility aid (Segway) in a new facility:

1) I email, write and/or call the local ADA Compliance officer (Coordinator) for the city where the facility is located to inform them of my need and intentions and request that they contact the facility's management to properly instruct them as to my need, applicable law, rights and and the penalty for non-compliance. I also ask them to report back to me and I follow up for this report (if it is not forthcoming).

2) I contact the facility and obtain a name of a person in authority and attempt to contact them directly to announce formal intentions to use a Segway mobility aid on the premises. This is also done in writing, usually email is easiest. I will follow up with a phone call is possible to be sure I am not being ignored.

3) If I encounter any resistance (or ignorance) on the facility's part, I report it back to the city official for additional action / intervention, never being rude and/or impolite in any of my communications.

4) I attempt to access the facility on my mobility aid. I always bring printed copies of my communications with me and, If stopped, refer to the people named in the documents. I ask the people stopping me to contact those individuals immediately and remain until the restriction is resolved. I always try to take careful notes when a restriction begins to evolve, taking down names, noting times and statements made, etc.

At this point you can remain fast and insist that the facility call police to enforce their policy and continue onward, hoping they will not grab you and pull you off balance or obstruct your path. You can expect them to follow you the entire time. They may feel it is their duty, rather than an intimidation tactic, but, it is nonetheless disturbing to be followed around.

So, this is about all one can do and should do prior to a facility establishing reasonable policy. I know it is painful, intimidating and aggravating, but, over time your effort may be a very important step in clearing the way for others.

To simply go away and not make an effort to communicate the situation with authorities, other people who might require access as well as to advocacy groups like DRAFT so they can build a case to change the policy is unthinkable.

We are at the vanguard to change, we should try our best to be noble, effective change agents.

Our cause is obvious and necessary.

[Timm]

Bob: Thank you for your help yesterday I got a email to call the Mayors office as they have been working on the progect all day!

Maybe its a good sign...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Stein"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:21 PM
Subject: Fw: From Nancy Losey reg Segway



Dear Timm & Crystal,

I don't have your phone number

I have been working on this issue today.

Pls give me a call to discuss. If you get my voicemail, please leave me
your phone number.

Thanks very much,

Ken Stein

Kenneth Stein
Program Administrator
San Francisco Mayor's Office on Disability
401 Van Ness, Room 300
San Francisco, CA 94102
415.554.6789
415.554.6797 TTY
415.554.6159 Fax

[Bob.Kerns]

Thanks for passing on his name and number. I don't think I'll be able to call him until tomorrow, but I'll email you my phone number, which you can pass on to him if you wish.

I have been in the Exploratorium, including under comparable conditions, with my Segway on numerous occasions, without the slightest difficulty. County fairs. Elementary school science nights and other events. Shoulder-to-shoulder crowds at parades.

I have also done these things in a manual wheelchair. Lots of safety issues with that.

A manual wheelchair, with its large-diameter, but hard and narrow wheels makes a toe-crushing accident a very real possibility -- it's happened to my daughter, and it meant a trip to the ER.

The Segway's smaller diameter wheels make a toe event much less likely. But if it does occur -- as when my daughter pulled the Segway (with me on it) over her own foot getting a book out of my bag. Not only did she not even say ouch, she didn't stop until she got the book out of the bag.

By contrast, the Academy's own director of guest services, who ended up pushing me around in their oversized wheelchairs (since I wasn't able to manage it myself), ended up colliding with people a couple of times, resulting in a couple of "ouches". I've had people fall over me on a wheelchair.

Except with my daughter, interacting on a very close level, I've never had ANY collisions with a pedestrian. And my experience is definitely, if you ARE going to collide with a mobility aid, a Segway is your best choice!

Anyway, I'm rambling, and have to get back to work.