Excellent Reply - Page 7

KSagal · 12-05-2007, 02:50 PM

Steven,

I am sorry you have had incidents at your demos. I do not see how they are machine specific. They are novice specific.

I asked if you ran thru crowds, on your feet. I asked this to get away from the segway you are so fixated on. I have never said that a segway cannot be a problem, or that it cannot have an accident. All I have said is that it is the same as a zillion other devices out there who all could suffer the same fate.

Those demos you mentioned were simply not well managed. Maybe better put, not well managed enough. Quite possibly, it is not reasonable to every be able to make them foolproof, which is what I have been saying right along...'

I would like a direct answer to this same question that I have asked before... Do you think that a driving school, or (now for the new part) a store that teaches people how to use the 'hover-round' or the rascal scooter or any number of other conveyances, would not have the same stories?

Do you not think that there is some mis-guided sole out there somewhere using the story of my late father running himself over with his rascal as a tool to get some sort of change to the law? I suspect it may be happening now...

I am not saying that a segway or its use does not intale some risk. Of course it does. All I have been saying is that the risk is not unique to segways. The specifics of the exact risk may be different for a segway than an electric wheelchair, but the risk catagory is the same... To use an example, the typical electric wheelchair has a larger footprint, and a significantly larger turn radious. In a crowded store, turn around space for a wheelchair may be larger than for a segway. The risk of a wheelchair or scooter which are usually even larger, knocking over an end display is larger, in my opinion, than a segway. Still, chairs and scooters are allowed, segways not.

I am sorry that you could not avoid the incidences that you mentioned during those demos. Actually, you never said you could not avoid them, just that they happened. Had you been running those specific events, we do not know what would have happened.

I suspect that toddlers have wandered into demo areas before, and you dealt with it better. You did not give a complete list, just a list of failures. I suspect there were far more successes than failures.

Did you ever fall off your bike when learning to ride it? Of course. Did you ever use poor judgement when learning to drive a car? of course. Did every conveyance you ever learned to use intale a learning curve from novice to expert? Of course.

Segways are unique in the way they manage to move, and their control systems. They are not unique in the risk they present to the bystanding public.

Cars do not go into park by themselves. The operator must put them in park before they get out, or they will drive away on their own, and may cause damage. Segways do not go into park on their own, either. They need to be put into a safe mode before their operators are free to let them go. My golf cart did not go into park (or neutral) by itself. I had to put it into that before I could safely get out... if not, sometime it would creep away, sometimes not...

Would I think that a proficiency course is reasonable before atmittance to Disney? Maybe. Do they have a formal course for mobility scooters you can rent by the day? IF so, I think the same course is okay. If they do not require the scooters, wheelchairs, and baby carriages to comply, they should not for the segways...

pam · 12-05-2007, 05:15 PM

My only comment re: demos is that when I was trained to do demos (which I was - trained by LLC themselves), I was taught to never be more than an arms length away from the handlebars, so I could grab them as necessary, as demo riders are frequently unsure of themselves, and will panic.

Pam

hellphish · 12-05-2007, 06:27 PM

That is stated in every user's manual as well.

KSagal · 12-05-2007, 06:47 PM

I recieved the same advice, from Segway corporate, when I took the trainer course.

Furthermore, one time I allowed my Brother-in-law to talk me into letting his teenage son on a demo, and at the urging of his father, got going and was afraid to stop.

At the time, I was running for Selectman in my town, this was on election day, and in full suit, in front of hundreds of people, I had to run down my own seg with a scared and yelling teenager on it, yelling how he could not stop...

I did catch the segway (it was in black key, but he had a 50 foot headstart) but I did not get elected selectman, nor have I cared much for that brother-in-law since...

I have given 100s of demos, but I am sure far less than a segway professional, and have yet to have another get away from me for even a moment.

quade · 12-05-2007, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSagal

I have given 100s of demos, but I am sure far less than a segway professional, and have yet to have another get away from me for even a moment.

And that is one of the problems I have with anecdotes about individuals doing almost anything successfully as "proof" nothing is going to happen.

If the chance is 1 in 10,000 of something "bad" happening, then it's possible that an individual may never have it happen in his entire lifetime. However, when you scale that up, it's almost certainly going to happen to someone eventually.

Timezkware Tim · 12-05-2007, 07:35 PM

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but disabled people are not required to identify themselves with a card, placard, or otherwise, as that would be discriminatory. If one takes a care dog into a restaurant, you cannot even ask him or her to talk about their disability or medical info.

Parking placards identify cars that transport disabled people for parking purposes. It doesn't identify the driver or passenger--just the car.

If an identifying disabled placard were to be involved with Segway, it would identify the rider (since there is only one rider at a time), and would have no bering on parking, as was the original intention of placards. I think the ACLU would have a problem with this.

I agree with Jon. It shouldn't be about the disabled. If disabled people can operate a Segway safely, anyone should be allowed to use one.

Tim

KSagal · 12-06-2007, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quade

And that is one of the problems I have with anecdotes about individuals doing almost anything successfully as "proof" nothing is going to happen.

If the chance is 1 in 10,000 of something "bad" happening, then it's possible that an individual may never have it happen in his entire lifetime. However, when you scale that up, it's almost certainly going to happen to someone eventually.

Who is acting the troll now? Have I ever said that my experience is proof that nothing is going to happen? You are just being disengenous now. I have always said that segway accidents will happen.

Statistically, accidents in the bathtub are well documented. I presume you use the same logic as above to explain your choice of hygene? Or is it possible that you chose to bathe and feel the risk is worth it? I am sure that those of us who have yet to meet you want to know...

quade · 12-06-2007, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSagal

I presume you use the same logic as above to explain your choice of hygene? Or is it possible that you chose to bathe and feel the risk is worth it? I am sure that those of us who have yet to meet you want to know...

Karl, you're pathetic and childish.

I would have thought this sort of thing was beneath even you, but I guess I was wrong.

KSagal · 12-06-2007, 01:47 AM

Thank you.

Hypocracy is hypocracy. And I am a pig...

pam · 12-06-2007, 11:23 AM

OK, what's happening with the holiday spirit???

Pam (in mod hat, again)

12-05-2007, 02:50 PM	#61
KSagal Glides a lot, talks more... Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Pelham, NH, USA. Posts: 10,356	Steven, I am sorry you have had incidents at your demos. I do not see how they are machine specific. They are novice specific. I asked if you ran thru crowds, on your feet. I asked this to get away from the segway you are so fixated on. I have never said that a segway cannot be a problem, or that it cannot have an accident. All I have said is that it is the same as a zillion other devices out there who all could suffer the same fate. Those demos you mentioned were simply not well managed. Maybe better put, not well managed enough. Quite possibly, it is not reasonable to every be able to make them foolproof, which is what I have been saying right along...' I would like a direct answer to this same question that I have asked before... Do you think that a driving school, or (now for the new part) a store that teaches people how to use the 'hover-round' or the rascal scooter or any number of other conveyances, would not have the same stories? Do you not think that there is some mis-guided sole out there somewhere using the story of my late father running himself over with his rascal as a tool to get some sort of change to the law? I suspect it may be happening now... I am not saying that a segway or its use does not intale some risk. Of course it does. All I have been saying is that the risk is not unique to segways. The specifics of the exact risk may be different for a segway than an electric wheelchair, but the risk catagory is the same... To use an example, the typical electric wheelchair has a larger footprint, and a significantly larger turn radious. In a crowded store, turn around space for a wheelchair may be larger than for a segway. The risk of a wheelchair or scooter which are usually even larger, knocking over an end display is larger, in my opinion, than a segway. Still, chairs and scooters are allowed, segways not. I am sorry that you could not avoid the incidences that you mentioned during those demos. Actually, you never said you could not avoid them, just that they happened. Had you been running those specific events, we do not know what would have happened. I suspect that toddlers have wandered into demo areas before, and you dealt with it better. You did not give a complete list, just a list of failures. I suspect there were far more successes than failures. Did you ever fall off your bike when learning to ride it? Of course. Did you ever use poor judgement when learning to drive a car? of course. Did every conveyance you ever learned to use intale a learning curve from novice to expert? Of course. Segways are unique in the way they manage to move, and their control systems. They are not unique in the risk they present to the bystanding public. Cars do not go into park by themselves. The operator must put them in park before they get out, or they will drive away on their own, and may cause damage. Segways do not go into park on their own, either. They need to be put into a safe mode before their operators are free to let them go. My golf cart did not go into park (or neutral) by itself. I had to put it into that before I could safely get out... if not, sometime it would creep away, sometimes not... Would I think that a proficiency course is reasonable before atmittance to Disney? Maybe. Do they have a formal course for mobility scooters you can rent by the day? IF so, I think the same course is okay. If they do not require the scooters, wheelchairs, and baby carriages to comply, they should not for the segways... __________________ Karl Ian Sagal To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin) Bene factum melior bene dictum Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.

12-05-2007, 06:47 PM	#64
KSagal Glides a lot, talks more... Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Pelham, NH, USA. Posts: 10,356	I recieved the same advice, from Segway corporate, when I took the trainer course. Furthermore, one time I allowed my Brother-in-law to talk me into letting his teenage son on a demo, and at the urging of his father, got going and was afraid to stop. At the time, I was running for Selectman in my town, this was on election day, and in full suit, in front of hundreds of people, I had to run down my own seg with a scared and yelling teenager on it, yelling how he could not stop... I did catch the segway (it was in black key, but he had a 50 foot headstart) but I did not get elected selectman, nor have I cared much for that brother-in-law since... I have given 100s of demos, but I am sure far less than a segway professional, and have yet to have another get away from me for even a moment. __________________ Karl Ian Sagal To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin) Bene factum melior bene dictum Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.

12-06-2007, 01:47 AM	#69
KSagal Glides a lot, talks more... Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Pelham, NH, USA. Posts: 10,356	Thank you. Hypocracy is hypocracy. And I am a pig... __________________ Karl Ian Sagal To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin) Bene factum melior bene dictum Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.

12-05-2007, 05:15 PM	#62
pam Last of the Early 30 Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Yelm, WA Posts: 4,679	My only comment re: demos is that when I was trained to do demos (which I was - trained by LLC themselves), I was taught to never be more than an arms length away from the handlebars, so I could grab them as necessary, as demo riders are frequently unsure of themselves, and will panic. Pam

12-05-2007, 06:27 PM	#63
hellphish Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Silentville Posts: 1,122	That is stated in every user's manual as well.

12-05-2007, 07:35 PM	#66
Timezkware Tim Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 941	Please correct me if I'm wrong, but disabled people are not required to identify themselves with a card, placard, or otherwise, as that would be discriminatory. If one takes a care dog into a restaurant, you cannot even ask him or her to talk about their disability or medical info. Parking placards identify cars that transport disabled people for parking purposes. It doesn't identify the driver or passenger--just the car. If an identifying disabled placard were to be involved with Segway, it would identify the rider (since there is only one rider at a time), and would have no bering on parking, as was the original intention of placards. I think the ACLU would have a problem with this. I agree with Jon. It shouldn't be about the disabled. If disabled people can operate a Segway safely, anyone should be allowed to use one. Tim

12-06-2007, 11:23 AM	#70
pam Last of the Early 30 Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Yelm, WA Posts: 4,679	OK, what's happening with the holiday spirit??? Pam (in mod hat, again)

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)