Outrageous !

[Tarkus]

I don't normally link DRAFT threads here but I had to on this one.

General Growth Properties, with mall locations around the country has met a new level of "WE
HAVE NO CLUE".

http://www.ggp.com/properties/mall_directory.asp

First the reason for a Segway ban for those with disabilities was "No two wheel devices", then "Not ADA Approved". Let's not forget "too fast".

Well as it turns out it is none of the above. As a matter of fact they have no policy as you will see in this thread.

What they are saying is :
"You can't use a Segway because you don't look disabled enough"

http://www.draft.cc/draft3/DRAFTCHAT...0/Default.aspx

That's what I take from this. If you sit and you look like a "crip" then the Segway is fine.

This will come back to bite them in the azz some day as they have no credibility nor real policy in place.

Comments ?

Be Big,
Alan

[hellphish]

Really stupid

[Nelda]

Willful stupidity makes me absolutely livid.

Nelda

[william collins]

I sent the following to the general manager of The Mall in Paramus (Paramus Park) and then is attached the two answers I received

Hello I am a 74 Year old male and had been staying away from going to the Mall as I can't walk very far.... I have purchased a Segway with a seat and am now using it as my form of transportation..My question what is the mall policy on segway use ..I do have ADA card and handicap plaque for my car...But before I load my segway in the car and drive to Paramus Park unload it & enter the Mall..I would like to know if I won't be asked to leave by security..I do not use a wheelchair as I am not that disabled YET...
Regards ..William J Collins

Good morning Mr. Collins. This is the first time I’ve been asked this question. I will check with corporate security and get back to you as soon as I have an answer. Thank you for your inquiry.

Dear Mr. Collins,

Thank you for your recent inquiry regarding the use of segways by our mall shoppers. I have contacted our General Counsel and they have determined that segways could be a hazard to our customers’ safety. Therefore, our policy prohibits the use of segways.

Please let me know if there is any way I can be of further assistance.


Sincerely,

Minnie Adams
General Manager
Paramus Park Shopping Center

[KSagal]

How would everyone respond to this?

I was not specifically asked, but I would respond:

Ms Adams,

I do not understand that statement. In what way would the segway, a device, pose a hazard to your customers' safety? If your General counsel has any study or safety rating by an authority on the topic, I would appreciate seeing it.

As I have indicated that I am a member of a protected class of persons, in that I use my segway as a mobility device, I believe your stated policy is not in compliance with the American with Disabilities Act. As such, if you have a written copy of your policy, I would like a copy of it for my attorneys. If you do not have a written policy to offer, I shall use your letter as the policy, and forward that on to them for action.

I am disappointed that your company has decided that this is the policy that you will adopt. I believe that the media is full of stories of people's lawful rights being disregarded for unlawful reasons...

You stated that I should let you know if there is a way for you to be of further assistance. I would like to see if there is a way that I could meet with you and introduce you to my mobility aide, and the manner that I use it. Perhaps we can work together on a way that I can shop at your facility, and still satisfy your saftety needs. I am sure that you will see, as have all the studies that I am aware of, that segways are safe, and very compatable with your operation...

I await your reply,



I am not saying that I would or have posted this letter. I offer it here, for people to make comment. What parts did you like, what parts not, and how would you improve it?

[dale@thecoys.net]

Dear Ms Adams,

You have aroused my curiosity. Your attorney states "could be a hazard to our customers’ safety".

There are obviously a lot of things that could be a hazard. Such devices as large strollers, shopping carts, wheelchairs, sticks, "wheelies", etc. Clearly, your attorney has some way to judge.

I'm curious what objective criteria are used to determine if a device could be a hazard to your customers. Could your attorney satisfy my curiosity, please?

[4rmgt]

After reading this, I am almost embarrased to say that my IT Consulting company used to have GGP as a client. Their corporate headquarters, and therefore legal department is located at 110 N Wacker Drive in Chicago.

I think a nicely written letter, less accusatory in nature than the one submitted by Mr. Sagal, would help with this situation. I do like the part of the letter where you ask them to submit the findings of a study in which they determine that Segways are dangerous to others.

Just remember that we always attract more flies with Honey than we do with Vinegar.

Thanks and good luck.

[Tarkus]

Originally Posted by 4rmgt

After reading this, I am almost embarrased to say that my IT Consulting company used to have GGP as a client. Their corporate headquarters, and therefore legal department is located at 110 N Wacker Drive in Chicago.

I think a nicely written letter, less accusatory in nature than the one submitted by Mr. Sagal, would help with this situation. I do like the part of the letter where you ask them to submit the findings of a study in which they determine that Segways are dangerous to others.

Just remember that we always attract more flies with Honey than we do with Vinegar.

Thanks and good luck.

No need to be embarrassed, business is business and all at General Growth are not bad people.

Just some there are terribly misguided.

What irks me most is what I had suspected for awhile. These places make the rules "day to day". I know that my local Malls have left me alone because they know, through my advocacy locally and with DRAFT, that I'll raise a stink publicly.

So the guy in charge at these malls figures he'll take his chances. I swear one store has orders for security not to even look my way.

But the clincher is the "we will let you sit on it but not stand". Of course that again was just "appeasing" one patron for awhile, maybe.

But what it also did was to close the door on their safety issue.
Sit or stand it's still a Segway with all the same characteristics.

As far as "nice letters", General Growth, Simon etal have received plenty of them and have pretty much ignored them.

They chose to remain in violation of the ADA.

Thanks for the input, just like to let you know where some stand.

Be Big,
Alan

[Tarkus]

Where to send letters, the poor people at the local are only "foot soldiers".
I found many on the following list that I have sent correspondence to.



General Growth Properties, Inc. (NYSE: GGP)
OFFICERS & EMPLOYEES
BOARD MEMBERS
110 N. Wacker Dr.
Chicago, IL 60606 United States (Map)
Phone: 312-960-5000
Fax: 312-960-5475

http://www.generalgrowth.com

Chairman Matthew Bucksbaum
Age 80, $226,200 salary, $225,000 bonus

CEO and Director John Bucksbaum
Age 49, $237,700 salary, $225,000 bonus

EVP, CFO, and Director Bernard Freibaum
Age 53, $4,364,653 salary, $1,000,000 bonus

Chief Corporate Development Officer Jean Schlemmer
Age 59, $960,192 salary, $425,000 bonus (prior to title change)

SVP and Assistant Secretary Ronald L. Gern
Age 47

President, COO, and Director Robert A. Michaels
Age 62, $3,987,156 salary, $800,000 bonus

SVP and Chief Investment Officer Joel Bayer
Age 42, $898,701 salary, $441,000 bonus

SVP Development John Bergstrom

SVP, Development Thomas D'Alesandro
Age 52

Secretary Marshall E. Eisenberg
Age 61

Senior Manager Media Relations David Keating

Chairman Matthew Bucksbaum
Age 80, $226,200 salary, $225,000 bonus

CEO and Director John Bucksbaum
Age 49, $237,700 salary, $225,000 bonus

Director Alan S. Cohen
Age 45

Director Anthony Downs
Age 75

EVP, CFO, and Director Bernard Freibaum
Age 53, $4,364,653 salary, $1,000,000 bonus

President, COO, and Director Robert A. Michaels
Age 62, $3,987,156 salary, $800,000 bonus

Director Thomas H. Nolan Jr.
Age 48

Director John Riordan
Age 68

Director Beth A. Stewart
Age 49

Copyright © 2007, Hoover's, Inc., All Rights Reserved

Next up: Simon Malls.......


Be Big,
Alan

[KSagal]

Originally Posted by 4rmgt

After reading this, I am almost embarrased to say that my IT Consulting company used to have GGP as a client. Their corporate headquarters, and therefore legal department is located at 110 N Wacker Drive in Chicago.

I think a nicely written letter, less accusatory in nature than the one submitted by Mr. Sagal, would help with this situation. I do like the part of the letter where you ask them to submit the findings of a study in which they determine that Segways are dangerous to others.

Just remember that we always attract more flies with Honey than we do with Vinegar.

Thanks and good luck.

This is good feed back. Let's hear more...

With regard to tone, everyone has their own. These are some heavy hitters. And, of course, I am not looking for flies. I have found that these guys get paid big bucks to think about big bucks... That is why some catch phrases and buzz words that their legal department will tune in on are sometimes important... I have been fairly successful in my business dealings, and especially in at least getting noticed...

Clearly, a well thought out and exicuted letter will take more than the 10 minutes I gave the one this morning, but I wanted to offer up some ideas...

I think we could learn from those who have "talking points" and discuss some ideas and presentations here, and then go off and write our letters...