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Old 08-07-2009, 10:45 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Bob.Kerns View Post
Buying cars doesn't feel so nice -- but just so you can feel a bit better:
  • At least you won't have to breath their exhaust.
  • At least that's money that won't be going to hostile nations.
  • At least those low-mileage clunkers won't be helping drive up the price of gas.
  • At least that's less tax money you'll be paying in unemployment.
  • At least somebody got a new car out of the deal. Vs. no new car for unemployment.

Note: I'm not really supporting the plan. I'd go about it differently. But at least if it is costing you, say $100 in taxes, you aren't all of $100 in the hole if you look at the big picture.

I think "clunker defaults" will be relatively low, because of the tightening of the credit markets. After all, that did help precipitate the crisis.

How would I go about it? Well, if you're going to do it, fund it with a tax on clunkers. Much more economically efficient. You get a bigger economic incentive for a given amount of wealth transfer, and the cost is born by those imposing the societal cost of the clunker.

Let's talk about your points...

Exhaust? Okay, a couple miles per gallon is better.

Money not going to hostile nations? I presume you mean via oil imports, because (depending on who you ask) 75% or more of the welfare checks given in this program went to cars from foreign nameplates.

Driving up the price of gas? Hard to be sure. They will surely be driving up the cost of used cars, and since other programs like this around the world have resulted in black market cars to 3rd world locations, I don't know what other economic impact that may have. I still believe that oil futures and speculators, and a robust economy have much more to do with the price of gas than this program will ever have... Even with another 2 billion dollars, what do you guess will be the impact on the average miles per gallon for the cars driven in the US? I suspect it will be minuscule to the consumption of gas in the US.

Savings via Unemployment rolls? Again, since the cars sold are not all US, then many of the autoworkers that will benefit with the work to make cars will not be in the US and therefore will not affect our unemployment roles... Some will, so to a degree, this will help. But it will also impact the taxes and the credit markets as the Feds wrestle with the giant and growing deficit, and how to service that incredible debt... Because of the irresponsible spending, the net results of a stifled economy by an overspending and overtaxing federal government will cost far more jobs than the jobs saved by this welfare program.

Someone got a new car? Yes, someone who has a job (so they can get credit) will get a car with me paying a part of the cost... That may be good for them, but bad for me. My family benefits from my efforts, and now another family will too... My first responsibility is to my family.

$100 in the hole is not really a $100 in the hole... No, here we agree. I will be far more than $100 in the hole, as the feds typically waste at least 30% of all that they touch, by even the most generous gauges... So, in order to make me $100 in the hole, but the feds design, they will take at least $130. Then, the degradation of my remaining dollars will be that much more severe because of the devaluation of the US dollar as the rest of the world realizes how much is being wasted and thrown away, and given away, and much of it going out of our own country anyway... So, here I agree, the $100 in extra taxes that I cannot afford to pay will indeed be far different that actually $100 missing, much more in fact...

I would do it simpler. I would let failing companies fail. Some people will loose and it will be difficult, but all that is happening is that the agony will be drawn out longer, and unless we have a world war to pull us out of this one, we will be in for decades of bad economy, unless we actually learn that you cannot spend your way out of being over extended, as we are now... During the great depression, they spent and it lasted longer than it would have otherwise, in my opinion. Certainly what has been done is not yet working...

Regardless of success or failure, good economy or bad, those who have a ventured interest in revision history will continue to do so... If it gets better, they will take credit, and if it gets worse, they will continue to blame anything but themselves... Such is life.
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Old 08-07-2009, 11:42 PM   #42
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I'm confused. Is the title of this thread "Anti-Government Rants"?

If I had posted this stuff I'd be banished to "General Discussion". Where is the Hijacking Police guy when you need him?
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Old 08-08-2009, 12:16 AM   #43
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I'm confused. Is the title of this thread "Anti-Government Rants"?

If I had posted this stuff I'd be banished to "General Discussion". Where is the Hijacking Police guy when you need him?
Sorry. I should have known better. I wasn't trying to make any particular point, other than that economic consequences are a bit more complicated than the immediate effect.

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I would do it simpler. I would let failing companies fail.
That would be my first choice! That's the most direct application of economic feedback. But those consequences are complicated, too.
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Obviously, we can't have infinite voltage, or the universe would tear itself to shreds, and we wouldn't be discussing Segways.
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Old 08-08-2009, 12:55 PM   #44
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Karl,

I absolutely agree that trying to spend out of a recession is idiotic and agree with much of your post. However, being in the auto industry, I'd like to point out a couple of things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
Let's talk about your points...

Exhaust? Okay, a couple miles per gallon is better.

(actually, to get the $4,500, the milage improvement must be 10 mpg or greater. 2 mpg "might" get you $3,500 depending on some strict guidelines.)

Money not going to hostile nations? I presume you mean via oil imports, because (depending on who you ask) 75% or more of the welfare checks given in this program went to cars from foreign nameplates.

(Have you looked at window stickers lately? Most of the 'foreign' cars put a lot more Americans to work than the 'domestic' cars do. Can you say Mexico and Canada?)

Driving up the price of gas? Hard to be sure. They will surely be driving up the cost of used cars, and since other programs like this around the world have resulted in black market cars to 3rd world locations, I don't know what other economic impact that may have.

(The clunker program is extremely restrictive to prevent exactly what you describe in other programs. The dealers are under severe guidelines and failure penalties that cause each 'clunker' to have the oil drained and a chemical poured in, then the engines are started and run to destruction. Then, the cars are taken directly to crusher location with all types of documentation to make sure they are indeeded shredded. I don't think a dealer would risk utter disasterous penalities to try to resell a few clunkers to 3rd world countries.)

Someone got a new car? Yes, someone who has a job (so they can get credit) will get a car with me paying a part of the cost... That may be good for them, but bad for me. My family benefits from my efforts, and now another family will too... My first responsibility is to my family.

(Actually this is the only one of the major 'giveaways' that actually is giving huge results with a very modest investment... unlike the auto bailout of a certain american manufacturer to the tune of 187 billion that result in bankruptsy less than 2 weeks later. With the clunker program, a single billion dollars resulted in the best 2 weeks in sales in years and actually put a lot of auto plants back to work or bringing in extra shifts, plus all the suppliers and sales people and banks and... the list goes on and on. All this will benefit your family now and in the future much more than just bailing out banks and car manufactures.)
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Old 08-09-2009, 03:09 AM   #45
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I appreciate some of the items that Bud has brought to the discussion...

I will admit, that some of the numbers related to activity do seem to indicate that this program is having some effect... I hope it is a good one.

I find it no coincidence that the UAW owns the largest share of Government Motors, and the federal government is next... Since there was not enough revenue coming in to cover payroll, then someone was about to stop getting paid, so now the federal government is paying the employees in that union via this program... (instead of another dead-on grant)

Since it is seed money, and is bringing in other revenue to the companies, is is far better.

The fact that the far majority of cars being sold thru this program are not union made, or American Nameplates, shows some problems, but I don't care about the name on the car as much as the place it was made, as long as that place employs Americans...

As unfair to other industries, and to everyone in general, this is less impossible than another direct grant.

So, of all the ways that this federal government (and the immediate past one) has acted 'stupidly' (in the words of the guy in charge) this 'CARS' program is slightly less stupid than the rest.
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Old 08-09-2009, 02:59 PM   #46
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And all this time we've been saying that Segways are non-polluting....

Whoops, almost fell into the trap of blaming the machine, not the rider...<evil grin>

Fair enough!!! One SHOULD always blame the rider, Segway (cargo plates or otherwise) can't do anything unless directed or utilized by the user. This also means that while the Segway will move on its own and may crash into something, it only does so when the user allows it by neglect.

So, definetely blame the rider. Same as blame the driver, not the SUV; blame the gun owner, not the gun or manufacturer; blame the cook, not the ingredients; blame the computer user, not the cpu or ram; blame the drug user, not the drug or availability thereof; blame the john, not the prostitute; blame the criminal, not the victim; blame the joker, not the society that has given to the most of humanity throughout time; ALWAYS blame those who are truly responsible.

Responsibility is our (mine) requirement, not anybody (anything) else, no matter how convienent it is to pass on the responsibility to others.

P.S.
Is the "evil grin" a good thing or a bad thing?

Last edited by Seginaway; 08-09-2009 at 03:23 PM.. Reason: "evil grin" question
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Old 08-09-2009, 07:15 PM   #47
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I played polo again today after missing it for the last two weeks; I'd forgotten how much fun it is. That just may be my favorite segway thing.
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Old 08-11-2009, 03:48 PM   #48
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Finally coming up with a way to take "Trigger" with me that is single person loading & unloading as well as one that provides a charging capability while in motion.

All this for under $500 and now I have the freedom to explore areas that were outside of my 10 mile locale. Even if I could get to these areas before, I couldn't load or unload the machine by myself. Now, with this simple setup, loading and unloading is a snap -- a short 15 minute event.

Valley Forge & Gettysburg, here we come.

Photos -- courtest of my lovely wife, LJ.
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Old 08-11-2009, 03:54 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seginaway View Post
Finally coming up with a way to take "Trigger" with me that is single person loading & unloading as well as one that provides a charging capability while in motion.

All this for under $500 and now I have the freedom to explore areas that were outside of my 10 mile locale. Even if I could get to these areas before, I couldn't load or unload the machine by myself. Now, with this simple setup, loading and unloading is a snap -- a short 15 minute event.

Valley Forge & Gettysburg, here we come.

Photos -- courtest of my lovely wife, LJ.
Why do you take the leansteer off? I would think that you could secure it with some bungee cords or the like. With all of the problems I have read with people getting their leansteer centered when reinstalling it, I would think that this would be something to avoid... Just my 2¢...
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Old 08-11-2009, 04:11 PM   #50
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Why do you take the leansteer off? I would think that you could secure it with some bungee cords or the like. With all of the problems I have read with people getting their leansteer centered when reinstalling it, I would think that this would be something to avoid... Just my 2¢...
Actually, I've figured the leansteer re-attachement out, it is important to support the Seg when you put it back together. While the base unit is balanced on its own, as soon as you attempt to put the leansteer on, it's weight (especially if you have a bag on the front) causes it to unbalance the base toward the front. Very similiar to what happens when you power down the Seg - the infamous kickstand problem. By supporting the base so it is level, leansteer re-attachment goes much smoother and it is much easier to align it when there is support.

As far as leaving it attached, I was concerned that it may impact the back window and it may also tend to move around quite a bit as one travels down the road which may make the re-attached unit less firm, stable and responsive to Glider induced actions.

Further, ingress into the rear of the vehicle is lessened with the leansteer attached. Once the Seg is on the vehicle, one only has access through the flip window, the back door is closed.
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