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Old 11-18-2011, 12:44 AM   #21
Bob.Kerns
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I have a lot of sympathy for moderators. I've done a lot of moderation myself, over the years -- over more years than any of the present moderators, I would wager.

And I don't want the job.

That said -- and it would seem I also must add that this is not an attack on any moderator -- the current policy seems to me to be both misguided and ineffective.

You really can't suppress disagreement. You really have only two options: You can influence behavior, or you can censor it.

Neither is very rewarding for the moderator. Educating people as to the standards you expect can work, with enough work and the right people involved.

Censorship will buy you grief, with one exception: if the person being censored is unaware of the censorship, and continues to see his own posts. I have never seen that fail.

The nice thing about that is, it mimics what people's response to offensive comments should usually be: silence.

I'm not advocating that for the moderators. That's a big hammer, for far more serious problems (like motivated spammers or trolls who will come back under a different guise if you just ban them).

But I believe the forum software here offers that option to each of us individually. So my suggestion would be, for the parties involved, to simply ignore anyone you have a problem with, and it will be as if they no longer existed on the forum.

That may cause you some loss -- perhaps the other person's net value is positive, despite their irritant value. But your own contribution will be more positive, and if your threads get locked, you'll know it wasn't because of what you said in response to that person.

----

All that said, I will state (once) for the record I don't agree with the current moderation policies. I find this locking of threads to be more of an annoyance than the problem you're solving (at the level at which you're invoking it).

But I'm not going to tell you how to do it, when I'm not willing to do it. Just take the fact that I don't like it and add that to all the other factors in your decision making. I accept that has to include your own time, patience, and preferences.

I do appreciate that moderation IS needed, and do appreciate your willingness to take on the job.
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Old 11-18-2011, 08:50 AM   #22
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Well said, Bob.

My only comment on this is that in the past, there were more moderators, and the moderators were active in most of the main discussions. This meant that behaviour was curbed before it went too far (mostly).

But for whatever reason, the number of moderators has dropped and it must be a harder job for those that remain because of it.
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Old 11-18-2011, 10:24 AM   #23
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It may just be that I am not objective, but it seems to me that the vast majority of threads that get locked lately are mine.

I am a polarizing poster, some of what I say really gets under the skin of some, and everything I say gets under the skin of a couple.

I would say that this practice of closing productive threads has much more to do with personalities, and less to do with content. In that I mean to say that a particular content would be perceived as meaning one thing if coming from one poster, but will be perceived by the moderators as meaning something different if from another poster.

This is a natural reaction if they feel that there is a problem with a particular poster, then their tolerance for any thing at all they perceive as out of order will be tighter.

I said that the onset that I am not objective here. I believe that I get special scrutiny. Of course, I am completely willing (and have) also acknowledged that it may not be unreasonable or unexpected to do this.

I believe that there is a particular tilt to this site, and I tilt other directions. I also believe that while I may not be treated as I feel is fair, I do not believe that the moderators here feel the same way. Since I do not fit their mold, they most likely feel exactly opposite of what I have described, and may even feel that they give me more room than some. Of course, if someone would do a bit of research, and see that my threads (or more appropriately titled, threads where I am the OP) are the ones most likely to be locked, my point here will either be supported or not.

Clearly, I feel wronged here. Others feel that the system currently used is not efficient.

I have already posted that I would like a communication expressing what has caused this ire from the moderators. Who knows, I may respond in a manner that they will appreciate, and on a post by post level, instead of just pushing the kill button, they may finally teach this old dog new tricks.

I also feel that some here are the darlings of the site, and can post attack after attack and not have it be responded to. The problem with a PM saying to me that they feel a post of mine is out of order, is that I may explain why I made it, and then they have to hold someone else accountable as well, and that is much more work.

I agree that it is a thankless job. It is easier to use the kill button. I do not like their decision to use it, but understand it.

I will not pretend to be anything other than subjective. I feel I contribute something here that needs be contributed. All that said, I would rather a more positive resolution than this.
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Old 11-18-2011, 01:56 PM   #24
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Hi everyone,

First of all I want to thank you all for your comments. The positive comments for obvious reasons. But also thanks for the less positive comments, since these create the opportunity to discuss a few things.

Just like many of you, I have a busy life, both my work and private things consumes a lot of time. This unfortunately doesn't give me as much time as I would like to have, to read all the threads and posts in full details. Luckily I don't have to, I have a few SegwayChat friends, who don't want to be a moderator, but do like to help me, by notifying me when a discussion gets out of hands. I'm really thankful for this, because without them I wouldn't be able to do the moderator job. So a big thank you to my dear friends who are helping, they know who they are.

Ok, now let's move on to the more serious part of this discussion. I won't start pointing fingers to people, because I don't think this will help, I rather have a healthy discussion about this topic in a civil way.

Regarding warnings, I have tried communication via PMs, give infractions, remove offensive posts, remove complete threads and locking threads. Nothing seems to help, the small group of long-timers keeps offending/insulting each other. It doesn't matter what you do, they keep doing it. My next step in the plan to stop this behavior is banning people. It's not something that I like to do, I personally see it as a last resort.

I won't repeat the things that John has said, because it's a 100% match of how I think about it as well.

I started being a moderator after a cry for help from John on SegwayChat. A lot of the original moderators didn't had the time and energy to keep doing it anymore and he was the only moderator left. I volunteered for the job, not knowing what I would get onto me. Well, I can tell you now, there are a few very frustrated members in this community. I don't know where the frustrations are coming from, but somehow they love to air them to the other members and the moderators, for whatever reason.

There are several members among us, who aren't happy with the TOS, some even contacted me via PMs about it. I always tell the same, I'm not the all-knowing-guru when it comes to TOS, so if you have an idea for improvements, please send me your proposal for how to improve it and I will discuss it with John and take it from there. So far I have received 0 (yes, zero) proposals.

It seems to be the human nature that we humans like to complain, I don't know if this example is valid for the whole world, but for example, here in the Netherlands, people always like to complain about the weather, it's too cold or to hot, to dry or too wet. When the weather matches the criteria for being good weather for someone, you suddenly don't hear them complaining anymore, but neither are they telling me that they like the weather. So somehow we like to complain, but not to celebrate. Don't ask me why, perhaps John has an explanation for this, since he knows a lot about psychology.

The sad part is, that we're stuck with a few old-time members, who not only like to complain, but also to offend/insult people. The sad part is, that they haven't only discouraged the old gang of moderators, but also a lot of the other members. This isn't good, it doesn't contribute in any way, it only makes SegwayChat a less interesting place to visit, which isn't what any of us wants.

The saying is that you can't teach an old monkey new tricks, I strongly believed that this saying isn't true. My intentions when becoming a moderator were that I wanted to make this community better again, bringing back some of it's old glory, from the days that you could see people writing here long stories about their experiences, things that they have discovered, how-to's, etc. But this isn't something that the moderators can do by their self, we need to become a true community again. Don't ask me how, since I don't have a clue (anymore) how.

As you might know, I'm a solution designer, developing software solutions for new innovative concepts in the telecom area. A few weeks ago, I learned about greenhousing (see link if you're interested: http://www.testinggeek.com/creativit...ing-greenhouse), We people have the nature to judge really quickly, so therefor they made the expression stay in the SUN and away from the RAIN, where SUN is the abbreviation for Suspend, Understand and Nurture and RAIN stands for React Assume and INsist.

To wrap up this long post, I want to remind you that the moderators are also just like you human beings with feelings, busy lives, etc. I'm sure we aren't perfect and we're always open for suggestions on how to improve things. That's also one of the reason why there is a topic called Community Feedback and Support.

I would like to ask you all a little favor, please use the SUN mindset to answer the following questions, please don't respond directly, take your time to think about them, and think about them in a nurturing way. It are questions that are playing through my mind for some time now and I can't find a answer to them myself, so I hope the community here can help answering them:
  • Why do people complain about the poor quality of the TOS, but never contribute improvements?
  • Why do some people have to air them frustrations online, why not in a PM to the person with who they disagree?
  • Why aren't more people volunteering to be moderator, are they afraid that it will harm their relationship with the members. I do, but since it's only a small number of people, I take the risk?
  • Why are people waiting for moderators to correct matters when discussions are getting out of hand, when they can curbed it in a much earlier stage?
  • What is the best way to remind people on being civil?
  • If that doesn't work, how should we "punish" them, should we ban them?
  • How can we bring SegwayChat back to it's old glory, what is missing, how can we added, who can do it?
  • When will there be a next SegwayFest? Who is willing to organize one? Don't worry, I'm more than willing to help with it as far as I can remotely.

I think that this are enough questions for the weekend, I wish you all a very nice weekend. And if the weather allows it, make a nice glide for me (because here in the Netherlands it's freezing cold)
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Old 11-19-2011, 02:59 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by florin View Post
I would like to ask you all a little favor, please use the SUN mindset to answer the following questions, please don't respond directly, take your time to think about them, and think about them in a nurturing way. It are questions that are playing through my mind for some time now and I can't find a answer to them myself, so I hope the community here can help answering them:
Don't respond directly? How else? Anyway, I don't have an answer for all of them and I may not have the right answer for any of them, but here's my take:

Quote:
Why do people complain about the poor quality of the TOS, but never contribute improvements?
Nobody thinks they violate the TOS and it's too darn long to read to find out. How about a short list of rules (here's my personal example), plain and simple, linked to a longer version as in my example, and save the TOS for the legal-eagles to ponder.
Quote:
Why do some people have to air them frustrations online, why not in a PM to the person with who they disagree?
Must... get... thought... on... screen... NOW. PM too many clicks. Quick Reply right down there.
Quote:
Why aren't more people volunteering to be moderator, are they afraid that it will harm their relationship with the members. I do, but since it's only a small number of people, I take the risk?
I have volunteered to help out. Maybe I don't have what it takes here. I don't have a real job and definitely don't have a life. I administer 2 vBulletin forums and have been working in forum administration since 1994 (started on CompuServe). My own flooring forum is busier than this one and my members are all pretty well behaved. I get the occasional complaint of heavy moderation and some have left in a huff (most of those return), but no one has been able to say their problem was not a specific rule issue.
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Why are people waiting for moderators to correct matters when discussions are getting out of hand, when they can curbed it in a much earlier stage?
Members don't think that way. You know this. Stream of consciousness. Eye for an eye. The so's-yer-ol'-man syndrome. Whatever you want to call it. (btw, can you tell I was an English/Psych major?)
Quote:
What is the best way to remind people on being civil?
Participate. Share your thoughts about the topic that's supposed to be discussed and a small reminder to get back to it. It helps, I promise.
Quote:
If that doesn't work, how should we "punish" them, should we ban them?
I have a grand total of 2 former members on my "banned" list - that's in more than 5 years. Oh, I've banned 8 or 10 and the notice they see says they've been banned for life for repeated failure to follow the rules. But a couple days or a couple weeks later, I lift it. 'Course, that doesn't count spammers, who get the lifetime ban and no reprieve - there's only 164 of them though, because I think I do pretty well discouraging their registrations and I don't think any of my members can remember ever seeing spam or porn on my forum.
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How can we bring SegwayChat back to it's old glory, what is missing, how can we added, who can do it?
I don't know what it used to be like, so I don't know what its glory days were like. But most forums have a common interest - this one is Segways. It's obvious people like to talk about them, share pictures and videos of them and even discuss related interests, like bicycles, scooters and other recreational mobility devices. Seems to be a lot of Apple fans here too. Maybe give them more forums so they can discuss those interests too. Widen the range of interest. But you also need to be strict about that short list of rules I mentioned. In all my years of using and working on forums, I have seen politics and religion ruin many. People just don't know how to agree to disagree. They HAVE to be right because that's their belief. Everyone else is bad - not just wrong, but bad. And they remember it when discussing other topics.

I used to delete individual posts that were what I considered inadvertent rule violations. It happened enough where those people straightened up. I don't do many PMs. I believe every member has to follow the rules. Not some of the time, all of the time. Including staff - and I make sure my members know at a glance who staff members are. I split topics all the time when people get off-topic going. It's good for the focus of the discussions and it's very good for SEO. Being a staff member carries a lot of responsibility - to the members who make the site come alive with activity. It's a lot of work, but a well managed forum becomes less of a task and more of a joy.

That's all I got. Many will disagree. I love my Segway. When I am on SegwayChat.com, I'm not a republican, a member of any church, don't know what Dean Kamen was thinking, not a democrat, don't have the laws of anyone's state or country memorized, don't believe in giving the answer, "google it" and wouldn't think to tell you what's right or wrong about your gliding habits or sense of style unless you specifically ask. I'm just a segger with maybe a few related interests and that's why I come here nearly every day.

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Old 11-19-2011, 05:54 AM   #26
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Thanks Jim, great input.

Looking forward to more input from other members.
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Old 11-19-2011, 06:01 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eJM View Post
Don't respond directly? How else?
Sorry if I caused any confusion, what I meant to say is, don't hit the reply button straight away after reading my post, take your time, let it sink in, then formulate your post.
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Old 11-19-2011, 08:36 AM   #28
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I'd like to second Jim's well-stated comments. That's entirely consonant with my experience, on forums large and small.

I'd also like to point out that there's a huge difference between two squabbling long-time members going at it, and being unwelcoming to newcomers. They're not unrelated, but I don't think Karl, for example, needs any protection from the moderators. Nor do I.

Your concern is the overall impact, and not giving the impression to a newcomer that they'd be subject to the same. (And I would really encourage people to learn to deal with such things; don't let other people's opinions or rudeness dictate what you do. Sometimes people seem just too sensitive to survive in the real world -- but that's a whole different topic).

Here are my general thoughts. You'll have to figure out how they apply to your circumstance. Moderation has to be adapted to the personal needs of the moderator AND to the particular culture of the forum.00000

Here's what I think you miss in shutting down threads: it is not just affecting the particular problem participants. It is shutting down EVERYONE, and basically freezing the thread in the bad state (unless you delete posts as well). More, it is preventing any resolution; often it's based on a misunderstanding; sometimes, resolution of that misunderstanding could be achieved with a little discussion; perhaps even with some input from the moderators. This may even prevent future problems.

It would be better to point out that the thread has gone awry, and to simply ask that people refrain from further comment on the problem area. In nearly all cases, I think that should be tried BEFORE locking a thread.

You should also accept that things won't be perfect. People will be rude. People will sometimes not BE rude, but be ambiguous and interpreted as being rude. Your big concern is to not have it spiral out of control.

As for everyone else -- well, I think some people could learn that sometimes the best defense is no defense. Often, this just makes the attacker look like an idiot more effectively than anything you can say.

And a counter-attack is almost never effective.

And a question to an attacker will often force them to back off, where a statement may lead to further attack.

This last can sometimes be an opening for a moderator. "Why does Fred's statement bother you?" That's partly distraction -- reminding him that he has an audience and he himself is being judged, and perhaps not on the basis of the emotional charge of the zingers being thrown...

But a moderator has to avoid getting sucked down ratholes...you want to prompt them to work it out amiably (or else).

One approach is to find or write up a "how to handle online disputes" piece, and ask participants to go read it, identify where they might fit in, and act accordingly.

The absolute worst case, is when you have people cheering other people on in attacks. This DOES happen here. It is not a large problem, or common, but it's something to keep an eye out for. At the level it happens, it can be hard to distinguish from simple agreement with someone's position.

But it is absolutely poisonous. You need to be sure the balance is tipped the other way -- that bad behavior leaves you isolated.

You also want to avoid the issue entirely of "who started it?". You do that pretty well now, but at the expense of not resolving anything. Usually, someone went too far, and usually that someone was responding to something that THEY felt went too far. I don't have a magic formula, but it does help to understand that both sides generally feel they're just responding to the situation. That's one reason for my suggestion of pointing people at a something written. They will interpret it according to their own view; it should offer opportunity for constructively handling that.
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Old 11-19-2011, 08:54 AM   #29
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As for the TOS -- I can't even find anything relevant.
The list of moderators in the FAQ is WAY out of date. You're not on the list, Florin!

The official TOS is a bunch of dense legalese that even a lawyer would hate, and says almost nothing about behavior, other than that you can act against widely offensive behavior.

Somewhere, there's something that is more specific, but I can never find it. It has language that includes basically, we can't discuss moderation policies. That may be why you don't get any suggestions for how to fix the TOS.

So basically, you're asking us to suggest improvements to something we can't even find, and which we are forbidden to discuss.

I'd suggest ignoring the TOS entirely, and focus on a "Code of Conduct" instead. Simple stuff: No name-calling. How to respond to an attack. How to disagree without being disagreeable.

Stuff we all learn in kindergarten, relearn online, and spend a lifetime practicing.

Maybe someone can think of a good one they've seen somewhere that we can start from. I hope it wouldn't involve an endless argument about every point; something we can all look at and say, that's good enough for me.

Maybe what we already have comes close, if you can find it.
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Old 11-19-2011, 09:22 AM   #30
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We need the TOS for legal reasons, believe it or not. It's been updated with a simple set of rules at the top now that spell out the main behavior-based components ("the rules" for members).

That FAQ item has been deleted, since it was so out of date. There are only two moderators here, myself and Florin. We're happy to consider others if they PM me privately.

The TOS hasn't really been the problem. The problem has been the interpersonal conflict between a certain, tiny group of members here who (1) refuse to put one another on ignore (or can just use their own willpower to do so) and (2) feel like they have to get the last word in on any argument with the other member.

I've gone ahead and pruned the thread that started this most recent discussion and reopened it, in hopes of allowing people to continue on-topic.

Thanks for your suggestions and feedback!

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