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Old 09-01-2010, 01:15 PM   #1
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Default "Mosque" opposition provides aid & comfort to Taliban

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Taliban officials know it’s sacrilegious to hope a mosque will not be built, but that’s exactly what they’re wishing for: the success of the fiery campaign to block the proposed Islamic cultural center and prayer room near the site of the Twin Towers in lower Manhattan. “By preventing this mosque from being built, America is doing us a big favor,” Taliban operative Zabihullah tells NEWSWEEK. (Like many Afghans, he uses a single name.) “It’s providing us with more recruits, donations, and popular support.”

America’s enemies in Afghanistan are delighted by the vehement public opposition to the proposed “Ground Zero mosque.” The backlash against the project has drawn the heaviest e-mail response ever on jihadi Web sites, Zabihullah claims—far bigger even than France’s ban on burqas earlier this year. (That was big, he recalls: “We received many e-mails asking for advice on how Muslims should react to the hijab ban, and how they can punish France.”) This time the target is America itself. “We are getting even more messages of support and solidarity on the mosque issue and questions about how to fight back against this outrage.”

Zabihullah also claims that the issue is such a propaganda windfall—so tailor-made to show how “anti-Islamic” America is—that it now heads the list of talking points in Taliban meetings with fighters, villagers, and potential recruits. “We talk about how America tortures with waterboarding, about the cruel confinement of Muslims in wire cages in Guantánamo, about the killing of innocent women and children in air attacks—and now America gives us another gift with its street protests to prevent a mosque from being built in New York,” Zabihullah says. “Showing reality always makes the best propaganda.”

Taliban officials say they’re looking forward to a new wave of terrorist trainees from the West like this year’s Times Square car bomber. “I expect we will soon be receiving more American Muslims like Faisal Shahzad who are looking for help in how to express their rage,” says a Taliban official who was a senior minister when the group ruled Afghanistan and who remains active in the insurgency. As an indication of the anger that is growing among some Muslims in the West, this official, who requested anonymity for security reasons, mentions the arrest of three Canadian Muslims in Ontario last week on charges of plotting to build and detonate improvised explosive devices. (A fourth individual was arrested in Ottawa last Friday in connection with the case.) The Ground Zero furor will likely add to that anger. “The more mosques you stop, the more jihadis we will get,” Zabihullah predicts. http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/30/t...o-recruit.html
The Washington Post (a News Corp company) reported a similar perspective, quoting former FBI counterterroism specialist, Ali Soufan,
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“When demagogues appear to be equating Islam with terrorism, it's making young Muslims unsure about their place in the country,” he wrote in a Wall Street Journal Forbes essay. “It bolsters the message that radicalizers are selling: that the war is against Islam, and Muslims are not welcome in America.”

Given the situation, the option seems to be to let Park 51 proceed without further ado, and hurt the feelings of some people, or provide a propaganda coup to the Taliban and Al Qaeda who will use the prejudice against Islam to help inflame more terrorists, who will try to kill more Americans.

Your choice, America.
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Old 09-01-2010, 03:53 PM   #2
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I'm not going to get into what I think about building it or not but Taliban operative Zabihullah telling NEWSWEEK anything but their recruitment was UP would be shocking.
We as American people need to decide our fate without caring what Zabihullah tells NEWSWEEK.
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Old 09-01-2010, 05:37 PM   #3
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We as American people need to decide our fate without caring what Zabihullah tells NEWSWEEK
Do not forget that a former FBI counter terrorism said essentially the same thing. Perhaps we should ignore Zabihullah, but can we afford to ignore our own terrorism specialists? Besides, consider how you would feel if you were persecuted for your religious views? Would it make you happy?

While I share your disdain for the Taliban, we do not operate in a vacuum, and our actions have implications. Refusal to grant basic religious freedom to Muslims and widespread prejudice towards Muslims will surely drive some away from integration into society, and towards activism. This is not the way we want to go.

If you want to see what that can lead to, you need look no further than Northern Ireland.
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Old 09-01-2010, 07:54 PM   #4
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Apparently I did not express myself very well.
I am not publicly expressing my opinion on whether or not it should be built. I am simply saying that there is not a day that goes by that our enemies don’t try to geode us in with propaganda. I for one will not give them the floor. I have stood with the blood of my fallen brothers on my uniform in the Middle East. I along with the rest of the world watched as (the mostly Saudi) terrorists killed thousands on our soil. I took an oath to defend the constitution, but I have felt the anger that can rage inside a person touched by these events and I will say that just because you have the right to do something doesn’t make it right to do.
I will leave it at that.
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:16 PM   #5
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I am not publicly expressing my opinion on whether or not it should be built. I am simply saying that there is not a day that goes by that our enemies don’t try to geode us in with propaganda. I for one will not give them the floor. I have stood with the blood of my fallen brothers on my uniform in the Middle East. I along with the rest of the world watched as (the mostly Saudi) terrorists killed thousands on our soil. I took an oath to defend the constitution, but I have felt the anger that can rage inside a person touched by these events and I will say that just because you have the right to do something doesn’t make it right to do.
I will leave it at that
You have every right to your opinion, and I very much appreciate the service that you and your comrades have given this nation. However, I have a gold star on my combat action ribbon, so I think I have at least made a down payment for my own opinion.

Nobody is asking anyone to give the floor to our enemies., but does one ignore what one might be able to learn from them? Consider it as intel. Zabihullah's claim is one dot on a map. The FBI's counter-terrorism guy is another dot. The obvious anger of Muslim-Americans being persecuted is yet another dot. Thinking people have to try to connect the dots and do the best thing for the USA, as a whole.

I do not use the word "persecuted" lightly. Muslims are under attack nationwide. Mosque expansions have met prejudicial resistance in Tennessee, California, Michigan, and other places where there is no immediate claim to the hurt of 9/11. In Murfreesboro, TN, a Muslim community has had a presence for 30 years, and a mosque on today's site for 15 years. They want a modest expansion and (some) people there are going ballistic about terrorists. A couple of days ago someone set fire to construction equipment.

In Temecula, California, another "mega-mosque" (as the bigots are calling modest expansions now) met similar opposition. The Islamic community has been there for years, meeting in a warehouse, and the proposed 25,000 sq ft facility would be adjacent to two other churches. Protesters didn't bother to disguise their bigotry, shouting, "No more mosques in America" through bullhorns. One woman, Zorina Bennett, openly expressed outright bigotry to the news media. She was quoted as saying "They [Muslims] don’t fit in; they don’t belong in this country.”

In Florida, the "pastor" of a "church" curiously named the "Dove World Outreach Center", is getting his 15 minutes of fame (in trade for a lifetime in hell) by inviting "Christians" to a "Burn the Quran Day" on 9/11/2010. Other churches are promoting a counter-event to this loon, but which links do you think will be posted on websites promoting violent Jihad?

Actions against peaceful American citizens by religious bigots and racists have the potential for inflaming an entire culture of people, the vast majority of whom are a lot less radical than a few Christians I know personally.

It can sometimes be very difficult to follow the Constitution. It is all too easy for people to slip into anger and rage against "others". If we give in to those feelings, as was done in WWII by putting Japanese-Americans into internment camps, the Constitution loses, and we lose another little piece of our civility as a nation.

Park 51 in NYC is unique. There is no question the facility is fully legal under the law. People should take whatever position they want on this facility, with the understanding that our enemies are licking their chops over the thought of the US showing anti-Islam prejudice.

As for the bigotry, prejudice, and hate crimes being committed around the United States, clear thinking people should simply not put up with it. When bigotry is expressed openly, US citizens with moral character should stand with those being persecuted.

President Eisenhower said the following at the opening of the Islamic Center on Massachusetts Avenue in Washington in 1957.

“And I should like to assure you, my Islamic friends,” the president said, “that under the American Constitution, under American tradition, and in American hearts, this Center, this place of worship, is just as welcome as could be a similar edifice of any other religion. Indeed, America would fight with her whole strength for your right to have here your own church and worship according to your own conscience. This concept is indeed a part of America, and without that concept we would be something else than what we are.”

I'll leave it at that.
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Old 09-01-2010, 11:33 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Civicsman View Post
You have every right to your opinion, and I very much appreciate the service that you and your comrades have given this nation. However, I have a gold star on my combat action ribbon, so I think I have at least made a down payment for my own opinion.


I'll leave it at that.
If you have served, that elevates you in my eyes.

Many have said that what is legal is often not what is correct. The law is not a guide to what we should do, but rather a listing of what we should not do.

For the vast majority of both the American People, and the American history, not being codified made it legal to do. We do not need laws to tell us what we can do.

I, and many like me, say it is not a legal issue, it is a moral issue. There are tributes to Japanese Americans in many places, but Pearl Harbor would not be an appropriate one. The Cordoba house is another. (Even if they have changed the name, the fact that it was originally called that shows the sentiment)

The truth is that the Taliban will spin anything done to their advantage, or try to. If the Mosque is not built, it will show our intolerance. If it is built, it will show our weakness. In their eyes, we cannot win.

The funny thing is, the liberal zealots who are their best supporters against U.S. interests are the very first people they would stone to death, if they had their opportunity.

I know you don't care, but these views are toward Islamic Terrorists, which is very much different from those who practice Islam. The problem is that many Muslims also feel that it is insensitive to build this mosque there. I notice very few press reports from them, on most media outlets.

Of course, many people have short memories. I recall that when the inexcusable behavior of a number of catholic priests and those who protected them (a horribly small percentage of all catholics) came to the public view, there was lots of bigotry and hate directed against catholics and that church.

This is not new. The biggest difference that I can see, is that the victims of the catholic example was catholics, and the victim of the Muslim terrorists were not just Muslims, but also and mostly, non Muslims. It was an attack from a group outward, not inward.

Political Correctness is every where. My spell checker will capitalize Muslim, but not catholic. Interesting.

There is room for all opinions. But consistently saying that it is not illegal to build that mosque there to people who say it is insensitive and wrong, shows that a person is not understanding the argument.
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Old 09-02-2010, 01:40 AM   #7
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If you have served, that elevates you in my eyes.
Gosh, I can't say how pleased I am to hear that.

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I, and many like me, say it is not a legal issue, it is a moral issue. There are tributes to Japanese Americans in many places, but Pearl Harbor would not be an appropriate one. The Cordoba house is another. (Even if they have changed the name, the fact that it was originally called that shows the sentiment)
Surely, Karl, you mean that a memorial to Japanese military people would not be appropriate at Pearl Harbor, rather than a memorial to Americans of Japanese descent. A Freudian slip? After all, several Japanese American WWII units received the Congressional Gold Medal, and 22 individuals received the Congressional Medal of Honor. Surely, a monument to those units and individuals could legitimately (and morally) be placed anywhere in Honolulu.

Park 51 is a community center, like the Christian YMCA or the Jewish Community Center. It has a restaurant, swimming pool, basketball court, and a 500 seat auditorium for performances. It may be that this facility IS a tribute to Islam, which is no different than every Catholic parish that wants to "build something nice for God", but the suggestion that it is tribute to fundamentalist Islamic terrorists is ludicrous. If, as KSagal states, the difference between Islam and Islamic terrorists is easily understood, why is the facility getting any flack at all? Clearly, some people are unable to distinguish between the two, but there is also growing evidence that Islamophobes nationwide are using the memory of 9/11 as an excuse for their bigotry, and isn't THAT a great memorial for a terrible tragedy?

The original name, Cordoba House, was supposedly chosen specifically to invoke the peaceful coexistence of Muslims, Christians, and Jews in Spain in the 8th to 11th century. Cordoba allegedly housed a learning center. Once Pamela Geller (yechh...) sank her Islamophobic claws into the project, other Islamophobes and assorted ambitious political leeches suggested that it was named to commemorate the Islamic conquest of Cordoba.

I look at what is proposed, the history of the people involved, and decide for myself whether the name and the location were intended to be symbolic of the integration of peaceful Islam into western society, or whether the original name was intended to symbolize an upcoming Islamic takeover. Some readers here already "know" that it is the latter. probably because Newt Gingrich told them so.
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Old 09-02-2010, 08:57 AM   #8
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Surely, Karl, you mean that a memorial to Japanese military people would not be appropriate at Pearl Harbor, rather than a memorial to Americans of Japanese descent. A Freudian slip? ...

I look at what is proposed, the history of the people involved, and decide for myself ...

... Some readers here already "know" that it is the latter. probably because Newt Gingrich told them so.
First point, no mistake. I said what I mean. Thank you for again trying to pry the truth out of my head, without having a clue as to what you are doing. I said what I said, because it is what I meant, regardless of your mistake in understanding.

The decide for yourself is laughable to anyone who has heard your rant after rant after rant about the evils of the Fox News Channel. You have documented time and time again, about how wrong they are from the get go. You claim they lied without even caring what they are talking about, simply because it is on their station. You clearly pose the talking points, and your coolaide mustache is still showing. You are so much a believer, you may not even know who pulls your strings.

Newt who? Just because talking points are so important to some does not mean that it is the same for others. You are quick to try to refute everything I say (like the first paragraph of your last post) that you assume I need help from the right wing string pullers. I do not. I don't listen to Rush, I don't get instructions from Gingrich or Hannity. I don't pay much attention to them. Surely no more than to the Clintons or Jim Carter.
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Old 09-02-2010, 10:32 AM   #9
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Surely, Karl, you mean that a memorial to Japanese military people would not be appropriate at Pearl Harbor, rather than a memorial to Americans of Japanese descent. A Freudian slip? After all, several Japanese American WWII units received the Congressional Gold Medal, and 22 individuals received the Congressional Medal of Honor. Surely, a monument to those units and individuals could legitimately (and morally) be placed anywhere in Honolulu. Civicsman
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First point, no mistake. I said what I mean. KSagal
I knew you meant what you said, Karl. I just wanted you to say it clearly so that there would be no way to weasel out of it later.

You would oppose a monument at Pearl Harbor for Americans who are WWII veterans and were awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, simply because they are of Japanese descent.

Thank you for making your personal perspective so abundantly clear.

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Old 09-02-2010, 06:57 PM   #10
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I knew you meant what you said, Karl. I just wanted you to say it clearly so that there would be no way to weasel out of it later.

You would oppose a monument at Pearl Harbor for Americans who are WWII veterans and were awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, simply because they are of Japanese descent.

Thank you for making your personal perspective so abundantly clear.
Do you ever listen you yourself? I said a memorial to Japanese Americans, not a memorial to WWII veterans. Confuse yourself all you like. Change the words, and you change the meaning. If the memorial is because they are WWII veterans, it does not matter what their lineage is. If the memorial is because they are Japanese Americans, then it does matter what their lineage is.

When you say what you said about a monument to Medal Of Honor recipients, and say that I would be opposed to it, you are telling a lie. I hope that was simple and abundantly clear.
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