Obsessision: Radical Islam's War against the West

[Desert_Seg]

Originally Posted by ZoliHonig

Steven- I understand that you are just showing both sides of the coin here, but seriously, come on. When's the last time you heard of 'Radical Zionists' blowing themselves up in a crowded pizza shop or flying planes into civillian occupied buildings?

You're comparing an elephant to a paramecium.... there is no comparison and are entirely different (not just size-wise).

Size matters not. After all, Timothy McVeigh had only one helper and in one fell swoop destroyed the lives of thousands.

In 1928, who would have thought that the Muslim Brotherhood would be what it is today?

In 1990 who would have thought that Al Quaeda would be what it is today?

Doesn't take much to become big real fast.

Steven

[Desert_Seg]

Originally Posted by KSagal

Now think of the many attacks and events in this jihad. How many muslim leaders have been vocal in denouncing these attrocities? Very few. One or two have come out like Arafat, and said that he did not condone terrorism when speaking in english, then turn right around and speak in arabic about supporting the jihad. Most others have been deafeningly silent.

Many Muslim leaders have condemned the attacks. King Fahd and King Abdullah (Saudi), King Abdullah (Jordan), Sheikh Zayed and Sheikh Mohammed (UAE), Sheikh Al Thani (Qatar), Sheikh Sabah (Kuwait), and on and on. Yes, some do not condemn it but many have.

However, please note that Muslim leaders are different than ISLAMIC leaders / scholars.

Originally Posted by KSagal

Muslim Sunami victims were denied aid offered by Isreal. Their own governments would rather not allow Israeli aid workers in their country. This is not the action of people who do not support jihad.

Agree and I thought it was deplorable.

Originally Posted by KSagal

I don't know of any government sponsored textbooks for children that teach hate, other than in muslim national schools in various countries. Here, the parallel to the Hitler youth is a good one. These are not the school textbooks of people who do not support jihad.

Heck, the Egyptian schoolbooks say they won the Six Day War!

This practice is banned in both Saudi Arabia and Pakistan (the two worst offenders a few years ago) but it does still happen.

Originally Posted by KSagal

Let's look at one more thing. All those missles in southern Lebanon that are raining down on northern Israel. What about that great mass of Israeli army, out in plain site, in large groups sitting around. Talk about painting a target on themselves...

Yet the missles are still comming down in the towns and villiages, not on the military targets... THis indicates a great deal to me. THis is not a war against Israel. It has nothing to do with Israel's occupation of Lebanon, as they have been out for years. This is about killing jews. Any jews. Preferably women and children, as this is a better target to demoralize people...

I point out again that if it was Christians there they would still be raining the rounds (not missiles) down upon them. This is not a war against Judaism, it is a war because they belive the land is theirs. The war agains Judaism is a convenient excuse (sad excuse, but convenient none the less). Remember, they have nothing agains Judaism (that is why there are Synagogues in Egypt and Syria, two Muslim countries).

While I have been called conservative liberal or, depending on your point of view, a liberal conservative, I am really a centrist who does believe we can all get along...but it sure takes a hell of a lot more effort than just blowing the S**T out of each other.

As Steven Wright once said "I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize"...and many have!

Steven

[ZoliHonig]

Steven- if ti isw a war for land, than why were ther terrorist attacks fro 1948 to 1967 when we didn't own the West Bank or Gaza, and why where there terrorist attacks days after we pulled out of gaza? Why was the 1947 Partition plan denies as well as countless other land for peace agreements?

I don't know if you noticed bu there was guy in that video- Wallid Shoeblat was a former PLO terrorist that moved here and converted to christianity. He spoke at my school last year and told us.... Don't waste your time with giving the Palestinians land. They don't want land. They want you dead. This wasn't coming from some right wing Jew, this was coming from a former Palestinian that lived his life with them for more than 18 years. I'd sasy he has a pretty good grasp on things.

[Desert_Seg]

Originally Posted by ZoliHonig

Steven- if ti isw a war for land, than why were ther terrorist attacks fro 1948 to 1967 when we didn't own the West Bank or Gaza, and why where there terrorist attacks days after we pulled out of gaza? Why was the 1947 Partition plan denies as well as countless other land for peace agreements?

Because at that time you owned (and still do) something that they believe is their birthright. The rest of Israel.

Originally Posted by ZoliHonig

I don't know if you noticed bu there was guy in that video- Wallid Shoeblat was a former PLO terrorist that moved here and converted to christianity. He spoke at my school last year and told us.... Don't waste your time with giving the Palestinians land. They don't want land. They want you dead. This wasn't coming from some right wing Jew, this was coming from a former Palestinian that lived his life with them for more than 18 years. I'd sasy he has a pretty good grasp on things.

I too have heard Walid Shoeblat speak and his is a compelling story. But I believe he is also the one who got me thinking along this path...that this isn't a religious war, that it is a war about land...ALL the land.

Remember, Islam has nothing agains Judaism, Arabs have nothing against Jews...if not those synagogues (some more than 800 years old) wouldn't be there, nor would you have Arab Israelis, nor would you have Muslims living in Israel.

This whole thing is a land grab. Much as the Arabs believe that is how Israel was formed (a land grab agains them) they are trying to do the same thing to Israel.

Steven

[pam]

But, looking at it as a land grab (which I'm not discounting) ignores the fact that there are many of the extremists who have now generalized the land issue into a hatred of the Jewish race in general. If you gave them ALL the land, they'd still want to and try to kill the ones they perceive as their "enemy" -

Pam

[Desert_Seg]

Originally Posted by pam

But, looking at it as a land grab (which I'm not discounting) ignores the fact that there are many of the extremists who have now generalized the land issue into a hatred of the Jewish race in general. If you gave them ALL the land, they'd still want to and try to kill the ones they perceive as their "enemy" -

Pam

This I dont' disagree and, in fact, it supports another facet of radicalism, that nobody except a Muslim can live and THAT is the real problem.

BTW, there are quite a few Arabs who believe that this is a land grab that has turned into political hot potato and that there is no real value to the argument. In fact, many hoped that when Yasser Arafat died that much of this would go away, as this was his raison d'etre.

He did....it didn't.

Steven

[ZoliHonig]

Note: Obviously I'm a Zionist by my israeli flag icon / bubble but this is common sense here:

Steven, you gotta stop the garbage of a land grab. If your definition of "land grab" is to obtain all the land, and I mean every square inch in not just Israel but every square inch on every single continent with all the non muslims dead, then yes. It is indeed a land grab.

Otherwise it's not. Let's say one day *poof* Israel disapears and becomes Palestine. No Jews there at all... we move to Uganda. Do you really think that the radical Muslims will just give up and say, thank you very much. We're good now. DO you think they'll just stop burining Israeli, American, and British flags??

America has taken none of thier land, nor has Britain, yet their flags are beling stepped on, burned, and desecrated along with the flag of the Jewish State.

Let's make one thing clear though: There was never a sovereign "Palestine" that the jews "stole" from the palestinians. The land was owned by Turkey, then Britain, then the UN decalred a partition plan in 1947: The jews (then called the palestinians) accepted, the Arabs did not. Thus, The Jews declared the state of Israel, while the Arabs could have done the same but did not declare a state, rather stocked up on weapons and continued its daily terrorist attacks.

Once again, if all the land in Israel is all they want then there would not be a Sept. 11th or Madrid train bombings, or Iraq car bombings, or Egyptian hotel bombings, or London bus bombings..... It's not just the land. period.

[Sal]

I agree, this is not merely a land grab, it cuts much deeper than that. This is all truly about ideology -- radical Islam's warped worldview.

-Sal

[GyroGo]

Originally Posted by Desert_Seg

This I dont' disagree and, in fact, it supports another facet of radicalism, that nobody except a Muslim can live and THAT is the real problem.

Steven, I find myself often agreeing with much you say, but here I find you talking out of both sides of your mouth. So you are saying that it is a land grab not just to destroy infidels, and, oh, by the way, they want all the infidels dead too. I find it hard to reconcile that.

Also interesting that you address Zoli: "Because at that time you owned (and still do) something that they believe is their birthright. The rest of Israel." Zoli's location says NY. hehe, a little irony.

On another small but interesting point, if there are Muslims that aren't interested in Segway because it was invented by a Jew (Pam's anecdote - maybe on the other Israel thread), then I could not even imagine the amount of science and technology they would have to turn away from. A search of "Jewish" in Wikipedia's article on the Manhattan Project would indicate that they would have to ignore nukes too.

[Desert_Seg]

Originally Posted by ZoliHonig

Steven, you gotta stop the garbage of a land grab. If your definition of "land grab" is to obtain all the land, and I mean every square inch in not just Israel but every square inch on every single continent with all the non muslims dead, then yes. It is indeed a land grab.

Not garbage but an opinion and belief. You believe otherwise and I respect that, at least respect both my opinion and that I have studied this for 20 years. And no, I don't mean every inch of the world, and neither do Hezbollah and Hamas, at least not in this instance. They just want the land they declare is rightfully theirs.

Originally Posted by ZoliHonig

Otherwise it's not. Let's say one day *poof* Israel disapears and becomes Palestine. No Jews there at all... we move to Uganda. Do you really think that the radical Muslims will just give up and say, thank you very much. We're good now. DO you think they'll just stop burining Israeli, American, and British flags??

America has taken none of thier land, nor has Britain, yet their flags are beling stepped on, burned, and desecrated along with the flag of the Jewish State.

You are making a common mistake, one in equating the attacks on Israel by the Hezbollah or Hamas with events that happen elsewhere in the world. A has nothing to do with B except in that they might both be perpetrated by people who have similar hate patterns.

You are also equating the burning of flags to the bombing of and in Israel. The burning of the flags often have to do with expressions of hate and disgust and may lead to bombings but don't mean anything more than symbolic events.

You are also making an unstated claim (that is, you are attempting to create a tie in) of:

They burn Israeli flags
They attack Israel
They burn US and UK flags
ERGO
They must be about to attack US and UK

Based on that analogy, Venezuela, Cuba, and most of the countries in the G8 are also going to attack the US....

Originally Posted by ZoliHonig

Let's make one thing clear though: There was never a sovereign "Palestine" that the jews "stole" from the palestinians. The land was owned by Turkey, then Britain, then the UN decalred a partition plan in 1947: The jews (then called the palestinians) accepted, the Arabs did not. Thus, The Jews declared the state of Israel, while the Arabs could have done the same but did not declare a state, rather stocked up on weapons and continued its daily terrorist attacks.

I never said that there was a sovereign Palestine, nor did I say it was stolen from them. What I said is that Arabs feel that the land was taken from them, an assertion that has been made over and over and over again by the Arabs.

I also never said that I believe the Balfour Treaty and the ensuing UN initiatives were wrong. I reiterate...the Arabs feel this was wrong and that these wrongs are the root cause of their angst.

Originally Posted by ZoliHonig

Once again, if all the land in Israel is all they want then there would not be a Sept. 11th or Madrid train bombings, or Iraq car bombings, or Egyptian hotel bombings, or London bus bombings..... It's not just the land. period.

Yes, those would likely have happened....different groups against different causes.

1. Sept 11th - Anger against the Great Satan (US)

2. Madrid - Retribution for Spain's support of and action in Iraq

3. Iraq car bombings - Attempt to overthrow a new government / country and to inflict damage on the US

4. Egyptian Hotels - Muslim Brotherhood trying to overthrow Hosni Mubarak's government and install a Sharia compliant government

5. London bombings - Attack against the UK for their participation in Iraq and Afghanistan and their support of the Great Satan.

Don't confuse A and B....it is what polarization is all about!

Steven