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Old 07-24-2006, 10:54 AM   #1
ZoliHonig
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Exclamation Obsessision: Radical Islam's War against the West

I poseted this over in the other thread but I felt that this was such an important movie to watch I really wanted to get it out:

I just watched this video.... All I can say is wow. extremely well made and really opens up you eyes in this situation and the entire global jihad:

nestreporting

It's long, I know, but worth every second to watch it...
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Old 07-24-2006, 11:54 AM   #2
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EVERYONE SHOULD WATCH


"The only thing necessary for
for the triumph of evil...
...is for good men to do nothing."

Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
Irish philosopher, statesman
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Old 07-24-2006, 12:23 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GyroGo
EVERYONE SHOULD WATCH



...and a Michael Moore Video, too.
To remain impartial.

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Old 07-24-2006, 01:10 PM   #4
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Michael moore gets a segment in this video...
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Old 07-24-2006, 03:19 PM   #5
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Zoli, good post. Had seen the majority of it before but watched it again. Now, please don't take my response below as an attack of any sort. This is only meant to point out BOTH sides from somebody who has lived it for 20 years (by lived it I mean studied, taught, and lived in the region).

I would also like to point out that I am not a Zionist nor am I an Islamist. I believe my self to be an Arabist....one who has studied the region's history, culture, and religions, from the view point of the Middle East Arab and focused on the Levant and GCC (that is from Egypt to Oman and most things in between, including Israel).

Now, my comments....

Much of what is presented is true, at least from my point of view. Yet any movie that spends 1 hour and 17 minutes banging home a point about Radical Islam is trying to polarize the viewer.

That being said I don't disagree with the premise of the movie and it dovetails nicely with some very same topics I taught, wrote about, or have discussed in the past three (3) years.

There IS a huge problem out there that is being ignored. It is being ignored by the western world because it happens in mostly poor countries where a charismatic leader can often easily influence the disenfranchised (sound like anybody from the late 30's?). It is being ignored by the western world because it happens "over there". Yet we need to be aware that it is happening...not only "over there" but also within our own borders.

Even worse it had been ignored (much less so now) by the regional world (that is, the Middle East) until recently. Ignored because it focused the attention of the disenfranchised upon the western world. However, the same problems the western world is facing (the bombings, etc) have struck home and the regional governments have realized that there is a GLOBAL problem that also affects them, a problem that was virtually home grown (after all Wahabism is a root of many of the Jihadists) and has now come back home to haunt them.

In past discourse (not here, but elsewhere) I have likened the Islamist Movment to the Crusades of 600 years ago, a time when Christians tried to take over the earth and convert everybody to the one true church. If we fail to study history, we are doomed to repeat it, this time with 200 million Islamic extremists (yes, that is a conservative number of about how many extreme Muslims (aka Jihadists) are out there) trying to succeed where others failed.

HOWEVER....all that being said....

I can also say, in the same last three (3) years, I have seen very similar productions from Islamic sources against Zionism and have also listened to some true radical Zionists condemn every Muslim in the world, not just the Jihadists. So, although there is a lot of shots of Muslims being worked up into a frenzy, many Muslims yelling anti-US and anti-Israel slogans, it isn't the only side of the story. There have been terrorist Zionist organizations, even in the US, even on the US watch list.

Of course, I'm not equating the size of one group to the size of the other, just pointing out that there are two sides to every coin. BTW, from my point of view the mental pattern of true zeaolot Zionists is extremely similar to Jihadists...it is a thought pattern of fanaticism and extremism, and the like. Neither is right, neither is the path to follow.

So, to wrap it up. There is a huge problem out there....a HUGE problem. It is much larger than though and it does live and breath within the borders of EVERY country. That being said, the MAJORITY of Muslims are peace loving, Islam is a peaceful religion, (after all Islam comes from the root word Salam, which means peace). So, while this might polarize you into trying to understand the situation even more, please don't let it polarize you into believing the dramatic representations in their entirety.

Yes, Radical Islam is a problem, yes Radical Islam needs to be controlled BUT, the same can be said of Radical Zionism. I'd also like to point out that the anti-Semitism that we see in the Radical Islam movement is nothing unique, heck, we see it in the US militia and white supremacists, we see it in the European skinhead movement, we see it in many places...and those are threats we do NOT want to ignore either.

I also don't think this is going to get better any time soon, not at all. But the Muslims who live in peace, side by side with Jews, Copt Christians, Catholics, Hindus, Taoists, you name it, are the majority but, if you believe much of popular press they are in the minority.

So, while there is a problem DISCOURSE is the way to solve it, although that is much easier said than done.

Again, good presentation but it is meant to polarize and you probably need to be worried when its tagline is "zionist propaganda" so please do more research than just this piece.

Finally, I'd like to add something...Michael Moore is an idiot. What brain cell did he use to say there isn't a terrorist threat? I can't say it enough, Micheal Moore is an idiot!

Steven
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Old 07-24-2006, 06:13 PM   #6
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One thing I wonder about is how the 10%-15% number was calculated. How do these stats break down? Is Jihad more of a Sunni or Shite dogma? What about geographically, for example, what are the different percentages in the GCC states, in Egypt, in Afghanistan, in Jordan, in Sudan, in Syrian, in Iran... the rest of the Muslim world? THAT's one I'd like to see in the CIA fact book, maybe it's in the classified version.
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Old 07-24-2006, 07:51 PM   #7
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Steven- I understand that you are just showing both sides of the coin here, but seriously, come on. When's the last time you heard of 'Radical Zionists' blowing themselves up in a crowded pizza shop or flying planes into civillian occupied buildings?

You're comparing an elephant to a paramecium.... there is no comparison and are entirely different (not just size-wise).
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Old 07-24-2006, 08:57 PM   #8
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I too wish to thank ZOli for bringing that link to this forum.

I found that it was dreadfully long, and simply full of dread.

While I generally find that I aggree with much of Steven says, and surely do understand much of what he offered here, I am not so sure I would come to some of the same assessments that he has... There is surely merit in many of his arguments and considerations, and clearly the hour an a third was heavy on propaganda.

As far as giving Michael Moore equal time, that not needed. He can make his point in much less than an hour. After about 5 minutes of Michael Moore, if you do not understand his position and ALL the facts that he has, you are not his audience anyway. I feel him to be an opportunist and partisan fool, and only preaches to the same. The rest who are listening are there for another reason beside contemplative consideration...

One thing that has bothered me about the muslim jihad and all the numbers that have been bandied about, is just how accurate the estimates are for the support in the muslim community for the extreamists.

Pam commented on the reaction to the people from the neighboring convention in Chi town, about the segway. It was dismissed because Kamen was declared to be Jewish. I would doubt that we would call them jihadists.

When Jim Jones had his followers in Guiannna, and fed them all coolaide that killed them (Many young people do not understand the reference to coolaide drinkers) and they willingly drank it because he convinced them that it was the religiously right thing to do...

Anyway, Jones had declared himself as a proper christian, who was enlightened. He then killed all those followers... There was outcry from christians from all over, including the Pope, and the head of many if not most all christian churches all over the globe, distancing themselves and their churches from the 'Christian" that Jones was. They were very quick to say that Jones did not represent christianity in any way...

Now think of the many attacks and events in this jihad. How many muslim leaders have been vocal in denouncing these attrocities? Very few. One or two have come out like Arafat, and said that he did not condone terrorism when speaking in english, then turn right around and speak in arabic about supporting the jihad. Most others have been deafeningly silent.

I recall the scramble that the media went thru to find muslim leaders to explain what was going on after 9-11. They had no muslim leaders, they had 'department heads of muslim studies' from 2nd rate universities as the spokespeople. Not leaders of muslims.

Even Jewish leaders around the world are vocal about support or lack of it for activities in Israel. Other religions speak openly about others within their religion, either in support or to declare them as out of the mainstream...

Muslim Sunami victims were denied aid offered by Isreal. Their own governments would rather not allow Israeli aid workers in their country. This is not the action of people who do not support jihad.

I don't know of any government sponsored textbooks for children that teach hate, other than in muslim national schools in various countries. Here, the parallel to the Hitler youth is a good one. These are not the school textbooks of people who do not support jihad.

Now, I do not doubt that there are christian fundementalists who are radical. I do not doubt Jewish fundamentalists who are radical as well. I also believe that they could conspire within their little groups and may even assinate an opposing leader from time to time. But the numbers are not the same as what we are looking at here...

Let's look at one more thing. All those missles in southern Lebanon that are raining down on northern Israel. What about that great mass of Israeli army, out in plain site, in large groups sitting around. Talk about painting a target on themselves...

Yet the missles are still comming down in the towns and villiages, not on the military targets... THis indicates a great deal to me. THis is not a war against Israel. It has nothing to do with Israel's occupation of Lebanon, as they have been out for years. This is about killing jews. Any jews. Preferably women and children, as this is a better target to demoralize people...

I will state again as I have stated before. I am a libertarian, and feel that the government should stay out of people's lives, and let them do what they want without interferance. THat is only if that which they do does not adversly affect their neighbor. Any person who's chosen path leads over the dead children of any neighbor, does not have any of my respect, no way, no how...
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Old 07-25-2006, 04:50 AM   #9
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I've been in Cairo in June.

In the Arabic TV they showed an US tank in Iraq.
In this tank there were three soldiers, the oldest maybe 23 or 24.

On the helmet of one soldier was written : www.fullautofun2.com
-have a look on this homepage-

The other soldier was playing obsessively a war game on his
Portable Play Station.

The driver -finger on the trigger- had an Ipod on his helmet and was listening to Bruce Springsteens "War".
The sound level was so high that you could hear it from outside.

I don't understand Arabic, but only the pictures were enough.

The US Movie which Zoli posted makes people scared.
But also the Arabic Movie makes people scared.

My heart beats for America, but nobody should watch this Propaganda-Shi*

God Bless America

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Old 07-25-2006, 05:25 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GyroGo
One thing I wonder about is how the 10%-15% number was calculated. How do these stats break down?
This is very hard to gauge and some of the experts in this field with whom I've spoken say that is is nothing more than a SWAG (Scientific Wild *** Guess). Statistically this can be computed with a high degre of accuracy but the unknown is how many more "followers" will happen if certain events occur.

I should also point out that the 10 - 15% number is those who are considered radical. They are NOT all suicide bombers or even people who might go out and cause harm, they are just the extreme right of Islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GyroGo
Is Jihad more of a Sunni or Shite dogma?
Much more Shiite than Sunni but that doesn't mean the Sunni's dont' also have rhetoric. This majority lean is often attributed to the source of leadership for the Shiite....Iran.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GyroGo
What about geographically, for example, what are the different percentages in the GCC states, in Egypt, in Afghanistan, in Jordan, in Sudan, in Syrian, in Iran... the rest of the Muslim world? THAT's one I'd like to see in the CIA fact book, maybe it's in the classified version.
The dogma v geographical separation is predominantly on the Shiite / Sunni lines rather than on a pure geographical separation. As an example, Egypt, which is predominantely Sunni, is the home of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is classified as a terrorist organization and is built upon the Sunni sect.

However, it is my belief that this 10 to 15 % is likely fairly close in many countries, just some are more overt than others.

Hope this helps,

Steven
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