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Old 02-09-2010, 08:08 PM   #21
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Karl, I didn't think the "build light, fix broken stuff" method implied that it would be tested on consumers. I took it to mean "build light and test, then make it so things don't break, then sell it." It would be obtuse (I'm being kind) to assume it means to make a piece of crap product then give it to the market...

With a minimum payload of 100 lb and a maximum of 260, you are definitely near the max safe working load of the machine. However, Segway states that the platform is built to take several tons of stress. Perhaps it is a bit overbuilt?

I'm not really sure about your theories of the center of mass being higher causing the segway to require more torque. The segway is an inverted pendulum, and the lower the mass is (that is, the closer the mass is to the platform) the more it has to work to move. If I wore 80lb boots the segway would be working harder than if I work an 80lb helmet. I'm a bit fuzzy on the math, so I'm willing to be wrong here.
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Old 02-09-2010, 09:09 PM   #22
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Karl, I didn't think the "build light, fix broken stuff" method implied that it would be tested on consumers. I took it to mean "build light and test, then make it so things don't break, then sell it." It would be obtuse (I'm being kind) to assume it means to make a piece of crap product then give it to the market...

With a minimum payload of 100 lb and a maximum of 260, you are definitely near the max safe working load of the machine. However, Segway states that the platform is built to take several tons of stress. Perhaps it is a bit overbuilt?

I'm not really sure about your theories of the center of mass being higher causing the segway to require more torque. The segway is an inverted pendulum, and the lower the mass is (that is, the closer the mass is to the platform) the more it has to work to move. If I wore 80lb boots the segway would be working harder than if I work an 80lb helmet. I'm a bit fuzzy on the math, so I'm willing to be wrong here.


I agree that the segway is indeed overbuilt, but for a purpose. And I don't think that the cost in weight is anything that will be substantially be recovered with lighter weight and power in the base, as I said, the machine being the much smaller part of the mass that is being moved is the key here…

My initial response to your 80 pound boots vs helmet argument was to agree with your premise, but upon consideration, I am not so sure… Perhaps I miss used my terms when calling the power outlay torque, as many other factors are involved…

I believe that the effort for a given platform to move a fixed weight, lets call it 80 pounds is a finite number. 80 pounds moved 3 feet takes a fixed amount of energy…

But, the reality of moving a dense and low to the platform (like boots) does ultimately require different power than 80 pounds high and on an arm farther away from the work… There are momentum arms, and weights in balance and other forces at work that need to be dealt with because of the inverted pendulum, that do not exist or are reduced with a shorter pendulum.

The more I consider this, the more I go back and forth… I just don’t know. I hope, as you do, that someone comes up with the math… This much I do know, the inverted pendulum gets far more complex than the simple low dense weight…

But my primary thought of the ratio of machine to payload was not addressed… The machine is already only a 30% or less in total weight of machine and payload, as opposed to a car, where it is more like 90%.

Lastly, you telling me that my curb weight and the fashion accessories I carry are close to pushing the max weight tells you that your presumptions for designing a consumer device are way too light… A machine that stress fractures itself at 25%(?), 50%(?), 100% (?) 200% (?) above stated maximums may seem well and good for you, but are not realistic in the world of consumer goods…

The stress in a fall, or accident on the frame of the segway, or on the wheels is exponentially higher than any number based on static weight alone, so the light and used as directed with will work in a controlled environment like professional drivers in closed courses is very different than something sold to the public at large…

Tolerably weak because it saves a couple ounces of aluminum and pennies may be okay in some environments, but will turn out to not be acceptable to the buying public, nor their attorneys… In my opinion, of course…
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:32 PM   #23
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It's funny that the platform of the gen1 segway could support several tons when the handlebar can only support a fraction of that. I wonder what their line of thinking was in that case. Were they trying to save weight? Were they trying to reduce cost? It's fun to think about.
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Old 02-10-2010, 01:03 AM   #24
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It's funny that the platform of the gen1 segway could support several tons when the handlebar can only support a fraction of that. I wonder what their line of thinking was in that case. Were they trying to save weight? Were they trying to reduce cost? It's fun to think about.
You are making my point about light as possible, and just strong enough and not more so...

You seem to want to make the entire segway more like the handlebar, and I want to make the entire segway more like the base...
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Old 02-10-2010, 05:06 AM   #25
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Centre of gravity is irrelevant for an inverted pendulum. With an electric device weight is important-even if you cannot reduce the weight of the payload. Reducing the weight of a Seg by 25% has a small but measurable effect on the total weight being moved and there is absolutely no point making it heavier than it needs to be, it wastes resources and reduces performance- think how great the P was. If you have to lift it into the back of your car you will definitely notice the loss of 10/12 kg and that seriously impacts the utility of the device and where you can use it- If you could get it down to 25Kg with a quick release column and wheels, you COULD carry it in a shoulder bag and that would be a real game changer for the private user market.
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Old 02-10-2010, 12:32 PM   #26
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Centre of gravity is irrelevant for an inverted pendulum. With an electric device weight is important-even if you cannot reduce the weight of the payload. Reducing the weight of a Seg by 25% has a small but measurable effect on the total weight being moved and there is absolutely no point making it heavier than it needs to be, it wastes resources and reduces performance- think how great the P was. If you have to lift it into the back of your car you will definitely notice the loss of 10/12 kg and that seriously impacts the utility of the device and where you can use it- If you could get it down to 25Kg with a quick release column and wheels, you COULD carry it in a shoulder bag and that would be a real game changer for the private user market.
I think the current i2 is already as light as it could/should be. With all the potential curb dropping and the constant pounding the structure gets on a daily basis, it has to be robust. The chassis is formidable and needs to be so. The gearboxes seem to be robust, and also need to be so.

I don't see much potential for weight saving other than from some possible future change in battery technology or perhaps the use of titanium or magnesium instead of aluminum for the chassis. But that would increase the price which many here abhor.

I am personally grateful to Segway, Inc. for the current design which allows me to glide with relative confidence, enabling me to take much of my attention off of the machine and onto the machine's navigation as well as the environment.

If the P was so great, why didn't many more buy it? Answer: It wasn't that great. Better solution to lifting machine into back of car: Work out with an i2 to develop your muscles, or buy a hauler/Segvator.

Quick release column and wheels? Pipe dreams. Easy to imagine, but difficult (costly) to engineer/manufacture so as to be reliable.
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Old 02-10-2010, 01:11 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isidore View Post
Centre of gravity is irrelevant for an inverted pendulum. With an electric device weight is important-even if you cannot reduce the weight of the payload. Reducing the weight of a Seg by 25% has a small but measurable effect on the total weight being moved and there is absolutely no point making it heavier than it needs to be, it wastes resources and reduces performance- think how great the P was. If you have to lift it into the back of your car you will definitely notice the loss of 10/12 kg and that seriously impacts the utility of the device and where you can use it- If you could get it down to 25Kg with a quick release column and wheels, you COULD carry it in a shoulder bag and that would be a real game changer for the private user market.
Not irrelevant, just not important.

The height of the CG changes the time constants. A high CG will take longer to tip over, but will require more motion by the base to restore balance for a given angle of tip. In practice, these tend to cancel out.

It does make a difference, though. It also makes a difference how much of the weight is on the glider vs the unit, and how far spread out those masses are on each.
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Old 02-10-2010, 02:05 PM   #28
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You are making my point about light as possible, and just strong enough and not more so...

You seem to want to make the entire segway more like the handlebar, and I want to make the entire segway more like the base...
Actually I want to find a nice middle ground.
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Old 02-10-2010, 02:18 PM   #29
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Too expensive? Make more money.

Too heavy? Get stronger.

You have a bad back? Well, umm... get a better one.

No, I don't think things are always that easy. I don't think there is a simple answer to why the P wasn't bought more. The i series didn't take off until it got the extra range that made it viable for security. The P series never got the extra range, and was slower. Security has driven PT sales, and security wasn't interested in Ps. It used old NiMH batteries. Newer NiMH batteries are much better. The P used different sized parts than the i series, and maintaining and buying the parts for two different models is more expensive than for one.

The Segway landscape from the time when the P was introduced to the time it was discontinued didn't change much. The Segway landscape is much different today. You cannot compare a small Segway from 6 years ago to what a future small Segway could be, the times are too different and the game has changed.
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Old 02-10-2010, 03:06 PM   #30
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From what I've been told alot of dealers up sold to the i series. The i's were only a few dollars than more than the p's so to upgrade to the larger Seg wasn't that hard (longer range, ect).
I'm a proud owner of p133s, 1i67s, XT and i2s and they are all built very well ..... Just my .02 ... Your mileage my vary...


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If the P was so great, why didn't many more buy it? Answer: It wasn't that great. Better solution to lifting machine into back of car: Work out with an i2 to develop your muscles, or buy a hauler/Segvator.

Quick release column and wheels? Pipe dreams. Easy to imagine, but difficult (costly) to engineer/manufacture so as to be reliable.
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