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Old 01-28-2009, 03:15 AM   #11
Bob.Kerns
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Originally Posted by Gihgehls View Post
What do you expect? I only looked it up on wikipedia!
Not to distract from your moment of humor -- but I may as well take this opportunity to clarify what I was saying in that other, now closed thread.

I didn't say that Wikipedia was better than print encyclopedias. I said it was less likely to employ the specific technique of invisible selection of what to present. Selection bias is the term. Generally the bias in Wikipedia takes a cruder, more blatant form.

Which brings up my main point, which is that it's a good ground for education about bias and caution in reading, which is critical these days, given the environment that our kids are growing up in.

Parts of Wikipedia are very good. And parts are blatant battlefields for spin doctors. Like the rest of our world. (At least Wikipedia is more transparent than any other information source, with edit histories, discussions, sources, all there for you to inspect, and even repair the damage).

I don't have much problem with Karl's response, other than that he misunderstood what I was saying about Wikipedia. (Due to my carelessness, no doubt). It's unfortunate (and annoying) that our conversation was truncated due to an outbreak of rudeness.

Which brings me back to this forum, and why the world will end in just a few short years.

Too many people in media and politics foster an absolutist attitude that everything is dead simple, their way.

I think it spills over into society. And sometimes onto this forum. But really, most real-world issues are complex, and to reduce them to sound bites is to drastically distort the issues. I find it annoying, even if I happen to agree with the general issue.

It happens I'm not a fan of Barney Frank. (I used to live in MA, myself). I find him irritating even when I agree with him, because I've seen him sacrifice truth and honesty at the alter of expediency all too often. I'm sure that's not obvious from my post, because that wasn't my point. O'Reilly went through a long list of corruption, with at least some supporting evidence, and then threw in Frank with just a "his favorite bank".

Now, maybe that's just my failure to follow current events closely enough. But what really got me was the over-simplification and selection bias to make his point (and that he ignored historical corruption). It doesn't matter that I happen to not like Frank either.

To earn yourself the 'idiot' label in my book, you have to ignore evidence, over-simplify or reduce everything to dogma to fit a particular world-view. Any world-view!

And to earn yourself the label of 'jerk', you have to insist that you're right, that someone else is completely wrong, and not listen to other opinions, or demonize people, labeling them as a permanent enemy, rather than human, sometimes right, sometimes wrong.

That's what I was referring to in my piece in the other thread, in reference to the media, but sad to say, I find it hitting closer to home than I was intending.

I hate to see the community here degraded by intolerance and dogmatism. I don't have a problem with people speaking their minds. What I find damaging is when people try to shut other people down, rather than listening -- and then either agreeing or disagreeing.

Folks, what harm could possibly come to you from someone disagreeing with you? If they're wrong, they're wrong. Make your case and let it stand on its merits. If they still choose to be wrong, forgive them.

And listen. They might even be partly right! You might learn something! At the very least, you'll learn how to explain better. (I'm still working on that!)

Societies collapse when they no longer function as a social unit. And that happens when people no longer respect each other enough to communicate as members of a social unit, but rather as warring factions.

If that's happening here, where we have so much in common, then surely the world is going to end in a few short years. The end of the Mayan calendar is just a line -- the Mayan culture ended a long time ago. Ours can end, too.
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Old 01-28-2009, 11:05 AM   #12
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Bob,

Many good words, and more importantly, good spirit. Good attitude will accomplish more than most other forces...

All that said, I do not agree on the wikipedia being transparent, or even trying to less biased...

In order for that to be so, given the examples listed, then the user would need to be aware of and able to access all the histories you state. While this is easy for some, it is not for others. My 3rd grader for instance, will read the first page, most likely not even in it's entirety, then call it a day. The finished product he sees may have just been spun, and will be spun back by your standards next week, but he does not know that. He will have been fed the wrong information.

Unfortunately, we live in a society of sound bites and people who only read the headlines. My 3rd grader is unfortunately a better example of the norm than he should be.

Next is that since the wiki is on line, it does not get a fair and equal representation of everyone. It is as simple as that. Not all demographic groups use the internet to their respective percentages in society.

This forum is a good example of that. FOX News channel is consistently the most watched cable news station, and O'Reilly is their most watched TV Personality. Yet you saw the hatred bubble up and spill forth at the very mention of his name. Clearly there is a far larger amount of people who watch his show, by percentage, than support him here on this forum, by percentage...

Perhaps that is not entirely accurate. Perhaps the overwhelming negative reaction to the very mention of his name was a small minority of all those who read this forum, but they were the most vocal. So if we consider for a moment that a larger than published in that last thread support O'Reilly even on this forum, how would we know, if a vocal minority out post them?

Now, let's take this one step further. If this forum were to be split 50-50 in support of O'Reilly yet only 10% post, and all those who posted were negative, than that does not represent a fair accounting of those here. They had the opportunity to correct the record, but did not want to bear the slings and arrows that were shot my way. (I don't believe for a moment that this forum is split 50-50, but that was just a possibility. I know several people who do support him, and some even sent me PMs, but several stated that they did not want to get into the mud and have the attacks that I endured for even mentioning his name. I also had others tell me that the attacks were my fault because I mentioned his name.)

SO, back to wiki. If there is not an even representation of liberal and conservative voices on this internet, it will be biased. IF there is a fairly even representation of liberal and conservative views on this internet, but a vocal minority with a particular bias drowns out and intimidates the other more moderate voices, it will be biased... If the bias is only available to those who are computer literate to a higher degree than the average viewer, than there is still plenty of room for bias.

With a printed source, like a print encyclopedia, the bias may be there, but it is consistant, and can be countered once and you are done. There is not as much need for daily vigalance to see if someone has corrupted the already biased information.

Bare in mind, I did not say to my son that Wiki was a bad source. His teacher did. All I did was tell him why I felt she has a reason to make such a rule. This is not my fight. I have been forced to defend a policy from a teacher who never consulted with me on her choice. I do not happen to feel it was a bad choice, but I do not have any way to know if my reasons are her reasons, nor do I have an motivation to find out.

I believe that those who spend a lot of time on line confuse themselves into believing that this is the real world in some way. Clearly not all do this, but many do.

This is what I was referring to previously as telephone tigers. With the insulation of the natural consequences of your action that the computer disconnect gives you, a person can be as aggressive and disrespectful as they want. In real life, that can get you a knuckle sandwhich. This is part of why you say you do not have to deal with as many jerks and idiots in real life...

I'll take that one step further. You say you are a very large man. How often do you think some of those disrespectful things that are all over this forum aimed at me would be said to your face? Very few.

I am not nearly as big a person as you have said yourself to be. I am 5'8, but fairly broad in the chest. I present well enough that there are very few who will look me in the eye and treat me as I have been treated here. And far less who would ever consider doing it a second time. I do not need to get physical in any way, and do not. Presence is more than enough to cow most of these contributors and abusers of wikipedia...

Edit:

One last example of this not being real life, and why wiki is suspect...

Use the search function. A while back there was a thread that lasted for several pages that debated the difference between nerds and geeks. It got fairly heated as some points. Some people were very agitated... Clearly that would not really exist in real life, as the only ones who care about the definition of nerds or geeks are nerds and geeks. I swear, it went on for pages, and they did not realize just how deep a hole they were sinking into... (we were sinking into. I will admit, I fed that fire )
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Old 01-28-2009, 11:20 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
FOX News channel is consistently the most watched cable news station, and O'Reilly is their most watched TV Personality.
Here I have to call you out Karl! FOX News claims to be the most watched cable news station, but some would disagree. Other networks also claim to be the most watched and they both have evidence. You see, some stations use one poll to judge viewership and some use another. In some polls FOX News is the most watched, in others CNN is, and others have MSNBC up there. I guess we will never really know who is the most watched, we know who says they are, which is more than one news station.

So, I would say there is about 33.33333% chance that you are right and FOX News is the most watched. 1/3 aint bad. But I just thought I would interject and correct you, as the statement quoted above is not supported by fact merely opinion. As far as O'Reilly being their most watched TV personality, I'll assume that's fact. Any statistics made that just involve their station are likely to be accurate. If they involve other stations, they are not so likely.

Anyways, I will keep politics out of this post, just wanted to correct your statement with facts. Carry on!

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Old 01-28-2009, 12:39 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by jryan View Post
Here I have to call you out Karl! FOX News claims to be the most watched cable news station, but some would disagree. Other networks also claim to be the most watched and they both have evidence. You see, some stations use one poll to judge viewership and some use another. In some polls FOX News is the most watched, in others CNN is, and others have MSNBC up there. I guess we will never really know who is the most watched, we know who says they are, which is more than one news station.

So, I would say there is about 33.33333% chance that you are right and FOX News is the most watched. 1/3 aint bad. But I just thought I would interject and correct you, as the statement quoted above is not supported by fact merely opinion. As far as O'Reilly being their most watched TV personality, I'll assume that's fact. Any statistics made that just involve their station are likely to be accurate. If they involve other stations, they are not so likely.

Anyways, I will keep politics out of this post, just wanted to correct your statement with facts. Carry on!

Jeremy Ryan

You can call me out, it you like, but do not do it and expect that I will not respond...

Polls are not the way that viewership is rated. Ratings are. They are mostly collected by the Neilson Media group, but others are involved as well...

All you have to do is a quick Google search like I did...

I typed into google's search block, "Most viewed cable news network" and this is the top four responses...

<LI class=g>Fox News Channel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[22] [23] Fox still held eight of the ten most-watched nightly cable news ... For the year 2007, Fox News was the number-one rated cable news network in the ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_and_balanced - 235k - Cached - Similar pages
<LI class=g>Fox News Most-Watched Channel On Cable In Prime Time Weekly Ratings

Oct 14, 2008 ... Fox News Most-Watched Channel On Cable In Prime Time Weekly Ratings ... Fox News Channel was the number one network in prime time on all of ...
www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/14/fox-news-most-watched-cha_n_134682.html - 133k - Cached - Similar pages
<LI class=g style="MARGIN-LEFT: 3em">Eat The Press | Fox News Is 8th-Most-Watched Cable Network | The ...

Fox News Is 8th-Most-Watched Cable Network. Nick Douglas | Huffington Post | Posted Friday January 5, 2007 at 03:03 PM. The Fox News Channel ranks 8th on ...
www.huffingtonpost.com/eat-the-press/2007/01/05/fox-news-is-8thmostwatc_e_37926.html - 22k - Cached - Similar pages
More results from www.huffingtonpost.com »
<LI class=g>Fox News Channel Leads in 2007 Cable News Ratings - 2008-01-04 13 ...

Jan 22, 2009 ... Fox News Channel once again ended the year as cable’s top news network, ... NBC Was Most-Watched Broadcast Network For Inauguration Coverage ...
www.broadcastingcable.com/article/93247-Fox_News_Channel_Leads_in_2007_Cable_News_Ratings.php - Similar pages

As you can see, Wikipedia thinks Fox is first. Of course, we all know that wikipedia may or may not be reliable.

Huffington Post feels that Fox is first. Clearly not Fox's biggest fan group.

BroadcastingCable.com is a well known industry publication...

So, you see, you have not at all called me out. You have chosen to tell me I am wrong when I do not believe I am.

What say you to this?
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Old 01-28-2009, 02:27 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
What say you to this?
Nielsen ratings are polls. They send a questionnaire to houses across the country and ask them to record what they watch. It is a poll, there is no one (except the cable service providers) that can actually pinpoint how many people are tuned into one show at a time. But Nielsen is usually fairly accurate in their polls (which are also called ratings), or so we assume, I do not doubt they know their statistics. In some bigger markets Nielsen has meters to gauge viewership, but that is only 58 cities, so does not do justice to the general population.

Anyways, your sources are outdated, they are talking about 2007, and if you actually read the article, every one of them is going off primetime viewership and not viewership all around. I will give you that Fox News has consistently had the most primetime viewers, but all day viewers, I'm not sure. They don't seem to judge that anymore, last time I knew of them judging all-around viewers was in 2001. That is what I have to say to that.

You posted a good argument Karl, and I need to commend you for not choosing sources that were biased to your cause (something we all do time and again). Unfortunately, however, the source that your sources quoted was not accurate in the context. Now, if you were to say Fox News is the most watched Primetime cable news network, I'd give you that, but to say it is the most watched network (implying all day), is just a whim. You may be right, you may be wrong, but that is not based on fact!

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Old 01-28-2009, 02:39 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by jryan View Post
Nielsen ratings are polls. They send a questionnaire to houses across the country and ask them to record what they watch. It is a poll, there is no one (except the cable service providers) that can actually pinpoint how many people are tuned into one show at a time. But Nielsen is usually fairly accurate in their polls (which are also called ratings), or so we assume, I do not doubt they know their statistics. In some bigger markets Nielsen has meters to gauge viewership, but that is only 58 cities, so does not do justice to the general population.

Anyways, your sources are outdated, they are talking about 2007, and if you actually read the article, every one of them is going off primetime viewership and not viewership all around. I will give you that Fox News has consistently had the most primetime viewers, but all day viewers, I'm not sure. They don't seem to judge that anymore, last time I knew of them judging all-around viewers was in 2001. That is what I have to say to that.

You posted a good argument Karl, and I need to commend you for not choosing sources that were biased to your cause (something we all do time and again). Unfortunately, however, the source that your sources quoted was not accurate in the context. Now, if you were to say Fox News is the most watched Primetime cable news network, I'd give you that, but to say it is the most watched network (implying all day), is just a whim. You may be right, you may be wrong, but that is not based on fact!

Jeremy Ryan

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Old 01-28-2009, 02:40 PM   #17
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Google results are rated by relevence which is partially determined by how many times the search term was found repeated. Are you saying that repeating something over and over makes it true?
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Old 01-28-2009, 02:45 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Gihgehls View Post
Google results are rated by relevence which is partially determined by how many times the search term was found repeated. Are you saying that repeating something over and over makes it true?

No.

Have a nice day.
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Old 01-28-2009, 02:59 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
I believe you are splitting hairs. Any good look at my noggin will show you that is not my strong point.
Kinda hard to see your noggin under the hat! I'll take it you're close to bald and rest my case there!!

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Old 01-28-2009, 03:12 PM   #20
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No.

Have a nice day.
Don't be so flippant and dismissive. I'm not going anywhere, so you don't need to say anything suggesting so. "most watched cable news" is fox news's slogan, so of course you're going to see it repeated everywhere. Btw, good job on taking yet another thread off course.
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