Bushwhacking

[Buckaroo Banzai]

"Finally, I'd like to add something...Michael Moore is an idiot. What brain cell did he use to say there isn't a terrorist threat? I can't say it enough, Micheal Moore is an idiot!"

If Steven can say this, why can't I insult Bush & Co. anyomore Pam?

Michael Moore has more brain cells than most, especially one or two
"leaders" I can think of.

As for the rest of the above post, it seems pretty reasonable to me.

Peace.

[Buckaroo Banzai]

"One of the hardest things to do in life is to agree to disagree and still live harmoniously..."

That's hilarious to me coming from the man who attacks everyone who disagrees with his conservative out-look as unpatriotic or worse and can't bare to hear his precious "president" criticized while I'm sure Clinton got quite a grilling from the same person.

Tough to live harmoniously with "leadership" who torture innocents (even one), rig elections, spy on innocent civilians, wage war for profit, believe in "voodoo economics" and the "imperial presidency" and get around obeying the law 750 times by writing a signing statement on a napkin. Not to mention the state of the middle-class and "someone's" cronies raping us at the pump.

Or actual terrorists who blow themselves up in a market, etc.
Or armies who drop bombs on houses and wedding parties and take out the infrastructure of innocent civilians.

Let's just agree to disagree harmoniously, sounds nice.
Maybe we could all do some group therapy together?
Group hug.

Peace please.
This is getting out of control and there's is plenty of blame to go around.

P.S. A conservative is a person who believes that nothing should be done for the first time. Lol. I forget who said that.

[Buckaroo Banzai]

It's amazing to me how no one responded to "you know who" massaging the German chancellor at the G8 or Condi playing piano while the Middle-East burns. I got a spanking for pointing this out. Even if I did so harshly. Don't criticize the king. Lol.

Our country needs an enema and we will be just fine!

[pam]

I'm starting this thread so that those who want to discuss our prez (and particularly with Josh) in the OT area can do so here. The rulz? Just don't attack each other.
Pam

[Buckaroo Banzai]

Bring it on! Lol.

[RC Mike]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

"Finally, I'd like to add something...Michael Moore is an idiot. What brain cell did he use to say there isn't a terrorist threat? I can't say it enough, Micheal Moore is an idiot!"

If Steven can say this, why can't I insult Bush & Co. anyomore Pam?

Michael Moore has more brain cells than most, especially one or two
"leaders" I can think of.

As for the rest of the above post, it seems pretty reasonable to me.

Peace.

Ok, I have decided to post here knowing that it is definately at my peril, as I am going to be responded to in a way that will likely make me say something Pam will lock the thread and put me on moderation.

I think the big difference Josh, is that Steven's response, even in your opinion, is 99% completely reasonable. You disagree with one line, and that is your right, but the rest of it was not designed to elicit angry responses. It was designed to promote thought, unlike some other posts around here.

Just FYI, anyone who says there is no terrorist threat from radical Islam does not strike me as particularly bright.

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

His “pig obsession” press conference, swearing, chewing with his mouth full, “Yo Blair!” and now this? Sorry folks, the middle east is on fire and this our “leader”?

Not mine. I think he is drinking again and I’m not alone. For a rich kid he sure shows no class or manners. Remember this when he was the executioner in Texas???

Like this. Purely venemous angry speculation, designed to offend, regardless of the title of the thread.

And frankly, it was very refreshing to see him make a very valid point with understandable language. If Iran and Syria took their funding and supplies from Hezzbollah, do you think they would be having this current fight? And I think that violating a border and killing 8 people and kidnapping 2 would be classified as "S#!T."

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

I feel it is my patriotic duty to demand some oversight of this “appointed” president (2000 and don’t get me started on Ohio 2004) and his cronies. He embarrasses me and millions of other proud Americans over and over again. (Some people here seem to forget Al Gore won the popular vote by over ½ a million votes in 2000 and yes Bush WAS indeed appointed.)

And this, where you say we should forget the constitution. Yes, Josh, the same constitution that says I will never get a vote in a presidential election until I decide to move out of California.(Which will not happen, but it would be nice for my vote to count) But the point is that the small states would never have joined the republic without some say in who the the president is. Imagine living in South Dakota and knowing that Long Beach, CA has almost twice as many votes as your entire state. You do not matter. Now for that reason, South Dakota gets 3 electoral votes, and CA gets 55. Ok, they are overrepresented, but what about the 5,387,865 CA republicans who are disenfranchised by the 6,685,288 democrats. You are kidding, right?

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

P.S. Yes, I believe Israel should defend itself but collectively punishing a civilian population for some sick radicals’ crazy actions is wrong. Israel is a religious state and should act accordingly, IMO. I’m a proud Jew who has no problem criticizing Israel’s government and I’m a proud American who has the right to criticize President Darth Cheney, eh, I mean Bush.

OK, lets get real. The "civilians" in Gaza and south Lebanon know who the fighters are. But lets start with the first fallacy here. Who is a soldier and who is a civilian. When does a meeting of soldiers become a wedding party? maybe when the soldiers who survive move the weapons and then invite the press in to witness the "innocent civilians?" But this ignores an important point. People who have never been in uniform might not know this, but those of us who have sat through those hours long Geneva Conventions lectures by the JAG know that the conventions only apply to people who are, get this, "UNIFORMED SOLDIERS IN A SIGNATORY COUNTRY'S ARMED FORCES." You know Josh, that famous photo of a Vietnamese general "murdering in cold blood" a young man in civilian clothing? Well, that "young man" was actually a North Vietnamese Lieutenant Colonel who was wearing civilian clothing in South Vietnam trying to set up a suprise attack, and as such, according to the Geneva Conventions subject to immediate and summary execution.

Now, these people do not wear uniforms(strike one), do not fight for a signatory country(strike 2), and do not abide by the conventions themselves(strike 3). So until the people of that country intend to effectively police their country to keep criminals from using their country as a base of operations for a terrorist group(or for the politically correct, political party) to attack another country, at some point, that country has to expect to be attacked back. And frankly, it took way too long.

Now, will real civilians(as opposed to people who just wear a robe while they fight) get killed? I don't know? Maybe if they did not launch rockets from apartment buildings and from as close as 10 feet to a UN outpost, that would be less of a chance. But the moment a rocket flies from a Tyre apartment building, it becomes a legitimate target, and if the residents of a building see rockets flying from the 8th floor, it might be a good indication to get out of the building.

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

Tough to live harmoniously with "leadership" who torture innocents (even one)

Proof please of even one who was not punished, as opposed to people who were released saying to AI that they were regularly tortured while they were regularly visited by the IRC?

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

rig elections

Proof please? Oh wait, it was aparantly the repaving efforts in the unserved areas of town and police presence that scared legal voters away, or maybe the requirement to register in only one county in Ohio.

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

spy on innocent civilians

Oh, wait, it was Bushes fault for not knowing about 9/11, but listening in on phone calls to terror numbers in Pakistan and Afghanistan to find out what the next plan is going to be is bad, what do you want? Tell me, is there anything Bush can do right for you? What if he uncovered a plot to blow a dirty bomb in the Chinese Theatre? But it took a phone tap from a throw away cellular to a throw away cellular in Pakistan to do it? Would you still disagree?

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

wage war for profit

Proof please? Are you basing this on Farenheit? If so I will respond to this with a small version of reality.

From dave kopel.org, a Green party afiliated website.

"Moore’s film suggests that Bush has close family ties to the bin Laden family—principally through Bush’s father’s relationship with the Carlyle Group, a private investment firm. The president’s father, George H.W. Bush, was a senior adviser to the Carlyle Group’s Asian affiliate until recently; members of the bin Laden family—who own one of Saudi Arabia’s biggest construction firms—had invested $2 million in a Carlyle Group fund. Bush Sr. and the bin Ladens have since severed ties with the Carlyle Group, which in any case has a bipartisan roster of partners, including Bill Clinton’s former SEC chairman Arthur Levitt. The movie quotes author Dan Briody claiming that the Carlyle Group "gained" from September 11 because it owned United Defense, a military contractor. Carlyle Group spokesman Chris Ullman notes that United Defense holds a special distinction among U.S. defense contractors that is not mentioned in Moore’s movie: the firm’s $11 billion Crusader artillery rocket system developed for the U.S. Army is one of the only weapons systems canceled by the Bush administration.

Moore claims that refusing to mention the Crusader cancellation was all right because the cancellation came after the United Defense initial public offering (stock sale to the public). But the cancellation had a serious negative financial impact on Carlyle, since Carlyle still owns 47% of United Defense.

Moore tells us that when Carlyle took United Defense public, they made a one-day profit of $237 million, but under all the public scrutiny, the bin Laden family eventually had to withdraw (Moore doesn’t tell us that they withdrew before the public offering, not after it).

There is another famous investor in Carlyle whom Moore does not reveal: George Soros. (Oliver Burkeman & Julian Borger, "The Ex-Presidents’ Club," The Guardian (London), Oct. 31, 2000.) But the fact that the anti-Bush billionaire has invested in Carlyle would detract from Moore’s simplistic conspiracy theory.

Moore alleges that the Saudis have given 1.4 billion dollars to the Bushes and their associates.

Moore derives the $1.4 billion figure from journalist Craig Unger’s book, "House of Bush, House of Saud." Nearly 90 percent of that amount, $1.18 billion, comes from just one source: contracts in the early to mid-1990’s that the Saudi Arabian government awarded to a U.S. defense contractor, BDM, for training the country’s military and National Guard. What’s the significance of BDM? The firm at the time was owned by the Carlyle Group, the powerhouse private-equity firm whose Asian-affiliate advisory board has included the president’s father, George H.W. Bush.

...The main problem with this figure, according to Carlyle spokesman Chris Ullman, is that former president Bush didn’t join the Carlyle advisory board until April, 1998—five months after Carlyle had already sold BDM to another defense firm.

Moore response: Provides extensive citations for facts about Carlyle which were never disputed. Does not address the fact that Democrats and George Soros are also involved in Carlyle. Does not address how Bush administration severely harmed Carlyle by cancelling the Crusader. Reiterates the points made in response to Isikoff & Hosenball, that Bush friends were involved in Carlyle before George H.W. Bush was.

Interestingly, Fahrenheit omits one of the leading evildoers in Moore's grand conspiracy theory. As he told an audience in Liverpool, England, "It’s all part of the same ball of wax, right? The oil companies, Israel, Halliburton." The oil companies and Halliburton are prominent villains in Fahrenheit, but there is no mention at all of Israel. Indeed, a Bush quote about terrorism in Israel is chopped to remove the Israel reference. That Moore ignores Israel in Fahrenheit makes sense, given Moore's stated intention of using the movie to defeat George Bush in November. Most American Jews are Democrats; if they found out what Moore believes about Israel they might be considerably more skeptical about Moore's claims regarding other alleged global conspirators. (Moore is strongly anti-Israel; he has called for the U.S. to cut off all aid to Israel, and to use the money to buy weapons for the Palestinians. His latest book, Dude, Where's My Country, is dedicated to the memory of Rachel Corrie, an American who traveled to Israel, burned an American flag for some Palestinian children, and served as an activist for a terrorist support group called the International Solidarity Movement (ISM). The ISM which is run by the Palestinian Communist Party and which advocates the extermination of the state of Israel. She died trying to prevent an Israeli bulldozer from removing some shrubbery which was thought to cover tunnels used by terrorist bombers to enter Israel. Thus Moore dedicated his book to someone who deliberately sought to assist the terrorist murder of civilians in Israel.)

Moore response: None"

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

believe in "voodoo economics"

Well, it has resulted in raising federal revenues, but I know, it would be better to take from the rich and give it to the deserving....

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

"imperial presidency"

Maybe that is called leadership on principle, not polls.

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

"Not to mention the state of the middle-class and "someone's" cronies raping us at the pump.

Um, have you heard of China and India? Even better, right in our own hemisphere, You may have heard of Hugo Chavez, someone I think might be more your style? Well, he made it kinda a little bit harder for Shell Oil to bring his oil to the US when he decided that Shell Oil, who had paid and continued to pay royalties for the right to pump oil from Venezuela, no longer had that right, and that everything Shell had built, pumps, refineries, pipelines, port facilities, airports, everything, now belonged to the government with no recompense. Now, you can complain about the $10b profits of today, but can you imagine what that write off cost Shell?

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

Peace please.
This is getting out of control and there's is plenty of blame to go around.

You mean like when Clinton decided he really would rather not deal with Osama.

I guess my last point is directed at your home page Josh, which states on its front page that "Love is the message."

I see no love in any of your posts toward Bush. Simply hate. You hate the man, because he won an election you think he should have lost, and has taken actions you disagree with. He does not speak like a "politician," he speaks like a common man. Well, hate does not help anything. See Middle East for examples. Don't hate. Try to win the next election, according to the constitution it will take place the first Tuesday of November, 2008, and will be decided by the electoral college.

Im sure George Soros will be helping, so you should have a nice budget..

Mike

[Buckaroo Banzai]

He's your man alright.

[sombody]

Here we go again - The crack smokin Democrats against the abortion clinic bombin/sniper republicans.

My dad still has his faded impeach Clinton bumper sticker on his car to counter the Bush bashers in the neighborhood.

Kind of a twisted effort at being passionate I think
Is there any common ground ?




Rick

[JohnM]

Originally Posted by sombody

Here we go again - The crack smokin Democrats against the abortion clinic bombin/sniper republicans.

My dad still has his faded impeach Clinton bumper sticker on his car to counter the Bush bashers in the neighborhood.

Kind of a twisted effort at being passionate I think
Is there any common ground ?

Common ground, perhaps. In my 56 years I have yet to see a single occupant of the oval office who lived up to the presidential oath:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of
President of the United States, and will to the best of my
ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the
United States."

They all take office and then tend to forget that the Constitution even exists. And why not? The Constitution doesn't vote, doesn't have a voice, has no lobbyists and doesn't sit on the board of Haliburton. And the typical voter is willing the give up all his/her Constitutional freedoms as long as the government doles out bread, circuses and large portions of fear. Actually its more of a common swamp than common ground.

[Buckaroo Banzai]

Great post John M.

Sombody says, "Is there any common ground?"

Between torturing, war profiteering, civil rights out-the-window, racist, election rigging, using bully/smear tactics, spying, signing statement BSing, out of control spending, neo-con nut jobs and...

Environmentally protective, education minded, help the poor, medical coverage for everyone, out of control spending, diplomatically minded, war as a last resort, and sushi-eating liberals like me?

Going to tough. Lol.

Peace.