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Old 02-24-2008, 02:00 PM   #1
jryan
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Talking Things we ought not discuss! Why??

OK, fellow SC members, I have not spoken a whole lot lately for a variety of reasons. One of these reasons being that I have not found a whole lot of discussion in which I can partake. But I have noticed a trend in the past that I though ought be discussed. You see, many here, on occasion, talk politics and on occasion get attacked.

I was asked to create a discussion on anything I wanted for college and decided to discuss the topic of ignorance in politics and religion. I figured the general topic went well with SC as well and I may get negative rep for this, but it is only aimed at those that cannot have a constructive political conversation, you know who you are. There are also many here who can disagree but yet still hold a constructive conversation and this is not aimed at you. So here you go, my assignment, read and enjoy:

So I was sitting on my bed just thinking of how goofy it was that I created an assignment and yet failed at the utmost to follow through myself. Luckily, Tuesday has not come or gone yet so I still have time!!! My discussion topic today is ignorance of politics and religion. This may be a very hot button post to some but to others it may not. I am not talking about the countless ignorant politicians nor the ignorance of leaders in many churches, that is for another time and another place. What I am referring to is the ignorance of people around these topics. There was a time when the three things you never talk about were religion, sex, and politics. Sex was kind of phased out of the group leaving religion and politics.

So why is it that we cannot talk about these two subjects? It is because we, as a society have become too darn ignorant to let others talk without beating them down. People don't want to talk about it for fear someone will get offended and take it from a casual discussion to a verbal assault. That is just ignorant. Why can't we talk about these things and yet maintain it in a constructive way. Why do we, as a society, have to think we're right so darn much that we cannot respect or allow a different view or opinion. Let me tell you, on both of these topics, no matter how right you think you are, you are not right in your belief. The reason is because there is not a right or wrong in politics or religion. People with conflicting views in these topics feel just as strongly as you do, therefore there is not a right and there is not a wrong so you, my friend are not right.

I was born Catholic, I later converted to United Church of Christ when my mom was banned from catholic churches in WI by the bishop at the time. The reason she was banned was due to her being a lesbian, which, by the pope's standards, deserves to be beaten and cannot worship in a catholic church. My uncle converted to muslim. My grandma has not spoken to him since. I enjoy talking about religion with my uncle because he knows not to push me to convert and I know the same of him. This way we both learn from each other. Why can't others do the same? Because people are too set in their ways to think that any other way could be worthy of their time. Well, America, congratulations, we are the most arrogant nation on earth! Why? Because we have the great freedom to talk about whatever we want, but we took that freedom away from ourselves out of sheer ignorance.

On to politics. Throughout my life I have been very involved in politics. I have worked on several local campaigns and am now working on the Obama campaign. I have been to D.C. a number of times, spoken in front of congress, and spoken with specific members of congress more times than I can count. I am not afraid to talk politics with anyone, whether you will dislike me because of it, I do not much care. But I see a trend. People want their kids to vote, yet don't want to talk about politics. This does our country harm, because you are creating uneducated voters. Failing to allow others to talk about the issue only promotes idiocracy surrounding the issue. This is why the presidency is often not on politics, but popularity, which at times are the same, at times not. In my opinion, this wave of uneducated voting is why George W. Bush is in office in the first place, but that's my opinion. Either way, we are doing our country a great disservice to ban these such topics. Many people do not take their vote seriously, but in essence the president is who can make or break our country. By living in this mentality you are re-inforcing the thought that a vote is a dispensable thing, which it is not.

So, in conclusion, I urge you to set down your ignorance and freely discuss these issues, but at the same time allow others to discuss them, because to do otherwise would be to kill the very freedoms you very much so enjoy. Embrace your views but allow others. Maybe in turn you will find that people are more accepting of your beliefs as well. Somehow the old saying treat others as you would like to be treated has come to not apply to the topics of politics and relgion. Your views are accepted by me, although you may not change my beliefs, I would expect the same of you. Thanks and have a great day!!!



Jeremy Ryan

So on a side note, if you feel this deserves negative rep, go ahead, but to issue negative rep for such a thing would just prove the same ignorance I am speaking of. I am urging everyone to drop the hat and start approaching these issues whether the same or different than you with an open mind, it will make for a better world and a better forum.
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Old 02-24-2008, 02:39 PM   #2
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I thought that this venue was about Segways; not about religion and/or politics. There must be chat rooms for those subjects. Can't we keep on subject here? I guess this shows my ignorance that you seem interested in.
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Old 02-24-2008, 02:46 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guyler View Post
I thought that this venue was about Segways; not about religion and/or politics. There must be chat rooms for those subjects. Can't we keep on subject here? I guess this shows my ignorance that you seem interested in.
No, I do not seem to find you ignorant for that! That is not an attack. I am referring to when people attack others for sharing their views on politics or religion. Now, in essence, this forum is about Segways, but it branches off to so much more than that. If it was meant to be just about Segways, I probably wouldn't have a place here, because, as I do not own one, I cannot comment on a whole lot on the topic. But I share a fascination for Segways and come here to interact with others who do the same. Maybe I am mistakened, maybe this place is only for Segway conversation in which case, you can expect to see a lot less of me, because I am not knowlegable in that field.

I think the people I have met here have been amazing. This board is full of wonderful people, but I am just tired of seeing people get attacked for their views either here or anywhere. But I respect your view that this forum should be just about segways, although I do not share it. Thank you, and for the record I do not consider you ignorant!


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Old 02-24-2008, 03:39 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jryan View Post
... but it is only aimed at those that cannot have a constructive political conversation, you know who you are. There are also many here who can disagree but yet still hold a constructive conversation and this is not aimed at you. So here you go, my assignment, read and enjoy:

...
Why can't we talk about these things and yet maintain it in a constructive way. Why do we, as a society, have to think we're right so darn much that we cannot respect or allow a different view or opinion.
...
This way we both learn from each other. Why can't others do the same? Because people are too set in their ways to think that any other way could be worthy of their time.
...
I am not afraid to talk politics with anyone, whether you will dislike me because of it, I do not much care.
...
In my opinion, this wave of uneducated voting is why George W. Bush is in office in the first place, but that's my opinion.
...
Embrace your views but allow others. Maybe in turn you will find that people are more accepting of your beliefs as well.
...
Your views are accepted by me, although you may not change my beliefs, I would expect the same of you. Thanks and have a great day!!!

Jeremy Ryan

...
start approaching these issues whether the same or different than you with an open mind, it will make for a better world and a better forum.


All right -- who are you and what have you done with Jeremy???

I can hardly believe my eyes!! It's amazing to see the change in your perspective, or at least your expression of it. It hard to believe you've only been here for three months, yet my impression of you has changed tremendously. I will admit that my original impression was "Whiney kid that knows it all and won't listen to anyone". My warmest wishes to you for the increased maturity or perhaps just more clarity in expressing it. Of course, I am not one who is beyond reproach, I have been squelched on occasion also.

And my opinion is just that, you may take it with a grain of salt or a five-pound bag. I just had to comment on the growth that I have seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guyler
I thought that this venue was about Segways; not about religion and/or politics. There must be chat rooms for those subjects. Can't we keep on subject here? I guess this shows my ignorance that you seem interested in.
Actually, this IS the chat room for those subjects... or most any others. It's entitled "Off Topic" and if you read back over the last few years, you'll find that title is sort of like calling the Atlantic Ocean a 'large body of water' -- a bit of an understatement!!! Trust me, this is only a minor reach...

Enjoy!!
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Old 02-24-2008, 03:48 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-Flags View Post
All right -- who are you and what have you done with Jeremy???

I can hardly believe my eyes!! It's amazing to see the change in your perspective, or at least your expression of it. It hard to believe you've only been here for three months, yet my impression of you has changed tremendously. I will admit that my original impression was "Whiney kid that knows it all and won't listen to anyone". My warmest wishes to you for the increased maturity or perhaps just more clarity in expressing it. Of course, I am not one who is beyond reproach, I have been squelched on occasion also.

And my opinion is just that, you may take it with a grain of salt or a five-pound bag. I just had to comment on the growth that I have seen.



Actually, this IS the chat room for those subjects... or most any others. It's entitled "Off Topic" and if you read back over the last few years, you'll find that title is sort of like calling the Atlantic Ocean a 'large body of water' -- a bit of an understatement!!! Trust me, this is only a minor reach...

Enjoy!!

Thank you five-flags for the compliment! We have had a couple disagreements in the past, but I would consider our conversations constructive. As far as maturity goes, I have not changed. It just took me a while to find how this forum operated. You see I have one way off speaking around peers and one way around my professional contacts. As such, I also have two different ways of expressing myself. When I began here it was a little more of a peer kind of expression. I slowly realized that I needed to step myself up, on this forum, to a professional contact mentality. Regardless I consider many here friends. I would like to thank many of you for embracing me and being, at times, contradictory, but nice.

I wrote this because there are some people who have not been so nice to me, and there are some that are not so nice to others here. It seems as though to some attacking someone on their beliefs or attacking them in general is going to get their point further. This could not be more wrong. I just wanted to express that, on several occasions, I have seen people get attacked on political views and many other things. I am asking people to please stop (the few that choose to convey themselves this way)! I think that if we all just accept (but we can still constructively debate) other people's views this will be a much better forum. I am no god but will work on this myself!

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Old 02-24-2008, 05:13 PM   #6
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Jeremy...

As you know, I too have not posted in some time, but this is just too ripe, and has got to be plucked!

First off, we have had many civil conversations on this forum, and often do not agree, so I doubt that it was directed at me, but I will respond just as well...

There are so, so many issues that I have with your monologue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jryan View Post
OK, fellow SC members, I have not spoken a whole lot lately for a variety of reasons. One of these reasons being that I have not found a whole lot of discussion in which I can partake. But I have noticed a trend in the past that I though ought be discussed. You see, many here, on occasion, talk politics and on occasion get attacked.

I was asked to create a discussion on anything I wanted for college and decided to discuss the topic of ignorance in politics and religion. I figured the general topic went well with SC as well and I may get negative rep for this, but it is only aimed at those that cannot have a constructive political conversation, you know who you are. There are also many here who can disagree but yet still hold a constructive conversation and this is not aimed at you. So here you go, my assignment, read and enjoy:

So I was sitting on my bed just thinking of how goofy it was that I created an assignment and yet failed at the utmost to follow through myself. Luckily, Tuesday has not come or gone yet so I still have time!!! My discussion topic today is ignorance of politics and religion. This may be a very hot button post to some but to others it may not. I am not talking about the countless ignorant politicians nor the ignorance of leaders in many churches, that is for another time and another place. What I am referring to is the ignorance of people around these topics. There was a time when the three things you never talk about were religion, sex, and politics. Sex was kind of phased out of the group leaving religion and politics. Hold on just a bit here... There are several people in this country that have very strong feelings about sexuality, and the expression if it. How about the 'defense of Marraige act' and other issues? Try expressing a view that the Bible preaches against homosexuality and see what happens to you. NO, Sex it far from off the table, or equally far from being a topic where calm rational conversation is likely to occur.

So why is it that we cannot talk about these two subjects? It is because we, as a society have become too darn ignorant to let others talk without beating them down. People don't want to talk about it for fear someone will get offended and take it from a casual discussion to a verbal assault. That is just ignorant. Why can't we talk about these things and yet maintain it in a constructive way. Why do we, as a society, have to think we're right so darn much that we cannot respect or allow a different view or opinion. Let me tell you, on both of these topics, no matter how right you think you are, you are not right in your belief. The reason is because there is not a right or wrong in politics or religion. People with conflicting views in these topics feel just as strongly as you do, therefore there is not a right and there is not a wrong so you, my friend are not right.

I was born Catholic, I later converted to United Church of Christ when my mom was banned from catholic churches in WI by the bishop at the time. The reason she was banned was due to her being a lesbian, which, by the pope's standards, deserves to be beaten and cannot worship in a catholic church. My uncle converted to muslim. My grandma has not spoken to him since. I enjoy talking about religion with my uncle because he knows not to push me to convert and I know the same of him. This way we both learn from each other. I believe that the president of Iran, a moslem theocracy, stated during a speach in NYC that there were no homosexuals in Iran, and no one in the audience seemed to have a problem with that statement. One of the reasons that may or may not be true, is the public way that many homosexuals in that part of the world have been stoned to death. I would offer that while the catholic church is not accepting of homosexuality, there are others with far worse reactions. Why can't others do the same? Because people are too set in their ways to think that any other way could be worthy of their time. Well, America, congratulations, we are the most arrogant nation on earth! Why? Because we have the great freedom to talk about whatever we want, but we took that freedom away from ourselves out of sheer ignorance.

On to politics. Throughout my life I have been very involved in politics. I have worked on several local campaigns and am now working on the Obama campaign. From my perspective, he talks well, but says very little. One reason for this, is his record is so thin. When you speak of political ignorance, and of the presidential race being a popularity contest, Obama is the poster child. He has never, ever confronted what to do about the hostilities in the middle east, other than to bloviate about them. He has never voted in congress to actually do anything about it, nor has he ever taken a specific stand, via a vote on some actual bill or legislation which would define his position. All he has done is give speaches about what he would have done, or may do in the future. I have been to D.C. a number of times, spoken in front of congress, and spoken with specific members of congress more times than I can count. You have told people that you are 19. I suspect you may have better credibility to offer some more specific points than rhetoric that seems difficult to believe, whether it is true or not. A couple specific facts like dates and topics would go a long way toward credibility. I have been to congress as well, and that made specific impressions on me I will not likely forget. I am not afraid to talk politics with anyone, whether you will dislike me because of it, I do not much care. But I see a trend. People want their kids to vote, yet don't want to talk about politics. I don't know what people you are talking about here. I know many parents who do talk about this important topic with their children, as I do. I believe that this may be an area where your personal experience is influencing your opinion, yet you are stating it as a broader fact than it actually is. This does our country harm, because you are creating uneducated voters. If what you said was true, and I don't know that it is, your conclusion here is exactly right. I agree with it. Failing to allow others to talk about the issue only promotes idiocracy surrounding the issue. This is why the presidency is often not on politics, but popularity, which at times are the same, at times not. Again, if it was not about popularity, and only about a politician's record, Obama would not be a person most of us had even heard of. (ANd he would not have solicited and recieved celebrity endorsements, like Opra and others. Here, I believe Obama himself disagrees with you) In my opinion, this wave of uneducated voting is why George W. Bush is in office in the first place, but that's my opinion. Either way, we are doing our country a great disservice to ban these such topics. (I don't know that they are banned much, but often not civily debated, as was one of your points, that I do agree with) Many people do not take their vote seriously, but in essence the president is who can make or break our country. By living in this mentality you are re-inforcing the thought that a vote is a dispensable thing, which it is not.(I would say this is right, but actual history has proven that votes can be bought and influenced by less than appropriate means, so while I would like it to be true, it is not)

So, in conclusion, I urge you to set down your ignorance and freely discuss these issues, (Thank you, I shall) but at the same time allow others to discuss them, (I'll try) because to do otherwise would be to kill the very freedoms you very much so enjoy. Embrace your views but allow others. Maybe in turn you will find that people are more accepting of your beliefs as well. Somehow the old saying treat others as you would like to be treated has come to not apply to the topics of politics and relgion. (I do believe it must apply here, as much or more than in other places) Your views are accepted by me, although you may not change my beliefs, I would expect the same of you. Thanks and have a great day!!!



Jeremy Ryan

So on a side note, if you feel this deserves negative rep, go ahead, but to issue negative rep for such a thing would just prove the same ignorance I am speaking of. I am urging everyone to drop the hat and start approaching these issues whether the same or different than you with an open mind, it will make for a better world and a better forum.

One last point. Your signature line states that you voted before it was cool. THat is great. YOu are 19. I voted before you were born. And it was cool before that. More specifically, you could only vote since last year.

Let me put this in perspective for you. I was born in 1960. That means I was 16 when Jimmy Carter was elected. My first ever election that I could vote for president was in 1980, and I voted for Ronald Reagan, but more importantly, I voted absentee, because I was in another country, in the US Army, and that vote, my friend, was when voting was cool.
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Old 02-24-2008, 05:21 PM   #7
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Well first of all a good read on this subject is the SegwayChat Terms of Service

http://www.segwaychat.com/sc/tos/

Segway Chat is all about Segways for sure, but it does not stop there, SegChatters talk about everything and anything, because there is so much more to our members than just the common thread of owning a Segway.

On Religion and Politics, America is a free country and we can talk about those freely and openly, but I think someone once said "You never talk about religion and politics in polite company” as that is something that can get into a heated discussion fast. Especially if you have strong willed people with very different opinions.

You are welcome to talk religion and politics, but mind you if it does get ugly the Moderators will step in and send the dueling parties to their corners. There is no reason to be abusive or harassing to another member because they do not think the same way as you do.

Key issues that the Moderators watch are:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SegwayChat Terms of Service#2
· Restrict or inhibit any other user from using and enjoying the bulletin boards.
· Post or transmit any unlawful, threatening, abusive, libelous, defamatory, obscene, vulgar, pornographic, profane or indecent information of any kind, including without limitation any transmissions constituting or encouraging conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability or otherwise violate any local, state, national or international law.
· Post or transmit private messages sent to you by another member, in email, or by a moderator or administrator without their express permission.
· Post or transmit any information, software or other material which violates or infringes upon the rights of others, including material which is an invasion of privacy or publicity rights or which is protected by copyright, trademark or other proprietary right, or derivative works with respect thereto, without first obtaining permission from the owner or right holder.
· Post or transmit any information, software or other material which contains a virus or other harmful component.
· Post, transmit or in any way exploit any information, software or other material for commercial purposes, or which contains advertising.
· Violate any of these Terms, or restricts or inhibits any other member from using or enjoying SegwayChat.com or any of its services, based upon SegwayChat.com’s sole discretion. Such conduct may result in member’s account being terminated without notice.
Another one is

Quote:
Originally Posted by SegwayChat Terms of Service # 6
Do not use the email function located in Member Profiles to send unsolicited email relating to sales of your products or services. If SegwayChat.com members are interested in something, they can always contact you. Please remember we have a “Segway Stuff” forum for the purpose of promoting Segway HT related products and services. If we hear or learn about members receiving these sorts of unsolicited emails (and/or SPAM), the culprit(s) will have their SC account(s) banned.
People of all ages read SegwayChat and we try to be as family friendly as possible, so when it comes to off color topics that may not be something you would want your children to read reconsider your post.

Remember you remain solely responsible for your posts. And any member can flag an offending post and bring it to the attention of the Moderators for review.

The Moderators do have final say in disputes as they are in charge of Segway Chat.

Any questions or clarifications, please forward them on to John, Sal, Pam or myself. We are all available to you and are here to maintain civility on this forum and keep Segway Chat a place that is fun and someplace you want to be.
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Old 02-24-2008, 06:05 PM   #8
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Internet communities, like real life communities, vary greatly in what is and what is not acceptable in terms of subject matter; even in "off topic" forums. What is acceptable to talk about out loud in in a bar in Vegas is usually pretty different than what people will tolerate over hearing in a McDonalds in Salt Lake City.

It's not a matter of Freedom of Speech because that actually doesn't apply to private establishments. Yes, the management really does have the right to refuse service except in certain legally protected situations. What really matters is what the average and reasonable person would "expect" to hear under the circumstances. If management determines that it hurts their business, they'll deal with it. If management decides to let things ride, then the customers will determine what is and what isn't acceptable. In some circumstances, that's just fine and in others it causes fist fights to break out. In other cases, mom and the kids will just find a different place to buy their "Happy Meal".

What it really IS a matter of is finding the temperament of the community and adapting to it appropriately. I think just about any subject matter "ought" to be able to be talked about in most "off topic" forums, but there are some folks that simply can't talk about certain subjects without, well, going nuts. The fault isn't the topic, the fault is the people that can't control themselves.

BTW, you don't get to choose when you're born and nobody is "cooler" just because they voted in any particular decade.
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Old 02-24-2008, 07:22 PM   #9
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A few things to add in response to some of the posts! I basically shorten things that I have done up, because I do not feel that everyone wants to read the details. If I say anything and someone wants further clarification, please pm me, I will clarify further no problem. What I don't want to do is get into long life stories for everyone to read. That was one of my problems in the beginning, I told more than was really needed. So, on a person to person basis if you want more facts to substantiate my life claims, please feel free to ask, but privately not publicly, I will respond! Heck, if you want I'll even send a copy of my license!!!

Now on to Karl (well that last bit was aimed at his response as well)! No, Karl, I was not referring to you in my original post. I guess on the sex topic, we will have to leave it at, it depends on the area. In Madison, it is pretty much phased out. It is not really a hot button issue, but it is also widely accepted. So, maybe in Wilmington it is still one of the three, but in Madison it is not so I change my statement to "In some areas sex has been removed from the three!". It is often talked about in Madison but rightfully so, widely accepted so it is a very calm topic. I would agree that the catholic church is not the worst, but it is the only one I have personally expierienced, therefore I added it in.

As far as Obama goes, you are entitled to your beliefs. Much of what you wrote was opinion and I respect that, although do not agree. The fact is that there really weren't any votes in which he could have partaken to show his stance. He was openly against the war from the beginning, but was only in state senate at the time so that held no bearing. He still expressed his loathing for the war from the beginning, although only on a state level.

Karl, there are some very commendable parents that speak politics with their kids. There are some others that don't and I assume this goes by are as well. What I see more of is parents that talk politics with their kids but discourage talking it in public. But I'm glad we could find something to agree on here.

When talking about Obama, it is hard to say if we would have heard of him based on record. Why did he rise up nationally? This is because he won by such a great margin in IL thus sealing his celebrity. Did he win IL under his record within the state or popularity? Well I don't think either one of us can really say, due to the fact that I doubt you and I know I, followed the IL senate race of 2004. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if he won based on his record for Senate, then we would have heard of him now due to his record.

What I mean when I say I voted before it was cool is simply this. The first election I could vote in was 2006 (just state offices present)! Regardless, voting was a very uncool thing at the time. Very few of my age group did and that was a shame. Out of 90 people in my graduating class that were allowed to vote only one did. That was me. This election, it seems voting is cool amongst all age groups. Just saying that I voted before it was the cool thing to do in my group!!

Now to Will, you and the mods can try to curb attacks, but in the end they still happen. There are many that go uncurbed and I am not calling that your fault. Basically if people want to resort to attack mode they will, whether the mods like it or not, and these attacks cannot be stopped. I am just hoping people see how silly and arrogant these attacks are and make an effort theselves to curb them. No one excluded in my books. Anyway, I have said enough as far as this wave of posts goes! If you have any more to add or clear up, please let me know! Have a great day!!

Jeremy Ryan
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I voted before it was cool!! - A wise young lad!
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