Segways for the Disabled - Page 2

Sunday · 07-13-2003, 04:22 PM

MMM. Generally, sit down scooters are covered under Medicare and insurance plans; so I consider that option to be already quite accessible. I am visually impaired, and there are many options available to me as well. Guide dogs, guide horse(yes! they do exist. Very cute little things too), and the traditional white stick.

But like a Segway, a guide dog is a very expensive animal to raise and train. These animals are provided free of charge to the blind personreceiving it. So, in that spirit, I thought it would be neat if an organization existed that could provide a Segway for person desiring one. After all, I can go to all sorts of places with a stick, but a dog much more useful under many more conditions. Likewise, I've heard many people comment that the Segway is more useful and graceful to use than a tradtional sit down scooter.

And like I said earlier, it's just a thought. I'm certainly not wealthy enough to do this! And I imagine it would be something that would take years to set up anyway. Looks like most folks posting here think it's a bad idea. So I guess I've learned what I wanted to by posting this question.

Sunday

QuadSquad · 07-13-2003, 05:35 PM

Albaby,

While what you say is essentially true anyone having a television knows that the conventional seated scooters are available and covered by virtually all insurance plans including Medicare. (I really don't know if this is really true but it's certainly what they say on the commercials) it is also true that for many people that the scooters are their only viable option for a mobility device. The question is, is it the best option. Those associated with physical therapy have long known the importance of standing. Disabilities in and of themselves are disabling. I don't want to get into a long dissertation here, but there are many people who have a disabling event in their lives which prevents them from actually walking and they become the proverbial couch potato. Many are able to stand, but it takes 30 to 40% more strength to actually walk than just to stand. So the vicious circle begins. You know the old adage, "use it, or lose it" and in the instance of those who no longer stand because they cannot walk the deterioration of the muscles, particularly in the abdomen and the legs is accelerated and this even includes bone loss. So eventually even standing becomes difficult. So for those who can stand, and for those who can find any way of affording one, the HT is a vastly superior choice to the seated scooters. I won't even go into the emotional and psychological difference between standing, and being required to sit all the time. Clearly seated scooters have their place, but if insurance would cover an HT the world would be a better place./

jillmac · 07-13-2003, 06:10 PM

Albaby!

Sorry but I intend staying out of a wheelchair and off a scooter as long as I possibly can!

I have used a wheelchair at times when it has been absolutely necessary. I don't like using it. I also don't like the fact that people talk over my head or talk to whomever is pushing me rather than directly to me.

On my Segway I am infinately more mobile (more maneuvarable in tight spaces and only take up the same 'footprint' as a 'normal' walking person. Additionally the world and his wife stop me to talk or just smile broadly. A much nicer experience all around.

I have a distinct fear that once I start using a wheelchair on a regular basis I may end up HAVING to use it permanently. A case of 'if you don't use it you lose it.' At least with the Segway I primarily use it instead of CAR trips and also use to to get to places where are can park it and walk.

It really is so much better for ones psche and self esteem to be able to Segway if you have the opportunity rather than use a wheelchair.

Jill

Nothing is inexplicable, merely unexplained..... Dr. Who

RWC · 07-13-2003, 07:01 PM

Great Thread...

I really liked Quad's comments on how disabling, generally, a particular disability can be... the escalation of overall immobility and disability. I gather that there is a downward curving slope of physical health and mobility for those with a critical disability. The curve can steepen or flatten depending on the nature of the disability combined with what the person is doing in reaction to it. Seems like the HT can help flatten the curve better than other mobility devices. This is VERY GOOD NEWS!!!!

The hurdle with the HT is price. Perhaps insurance companies could be required to cover an HT if it was shown/proven to be a "curve-flattener". Question: How can a study be done? Who would do it? Why would they do it? Who can the group turn to for the next step?

I really like the idea of getting HT's under the stance of people who cannot afford them. I think some combination of philanthropy and study project will make that happen.

The other factor is legal use of the HT both for the general public and specifically the disabled. The more the general public is restricted, the more the general IMPRESSION will be that the HT is inapropriate for anyone, including disabled people. This will self-limit disabled people's thought of it as an alternative as well as eventual coverage by insurance companies.

Another feature of restriction is aimed directly at disabled people. It has been common for public and private venues to ban Segways as long as they provide an alternative like a wheel chair. Is this Legal... locally... nationally? I think the sooner this gets cleared up, the better. This will help individuals and also the overall cause. IF it is true that (with the leverage of the ADA and local compliance officers) Segway use MUST be allowed for disabled gliders, then venues will have to allow them and the NOTION of them being banned will start to disappear at those venues. If disabled people demonstrate safe use at the local mall, then that can serve as evidence for use by others as well.

I am not disabled but could become impaired and I think I will know and care about people, besides those on this forum, who will be impaired. It is important for ME that this opportunity, THIS RIGHT, is established. I at first looked at the Segway-Disabled "issue" merely in political terms... as a way to leverage the rights of gliding for everyone. Certainly our political foes have used it as a lever and I wanted to counter it. I have been feeling a little guilty about it... and perhaps so have our foes... who knows, maybe they really believe what they say. But lately, as I talk with more disabled people (and demo'd to a guy who just lit up just standing on it for a minute... before limping off into the sunset) and read threads like this one, I'm getting closer to each person and how each person is now benefitting and how SO MANY others can as well.

Keep up the good threads and good work. Maybe contact national and local ADA people to speak up for you.. us. The HT IS something much better than ALL the rest of the devices (for those who can use it). Requiring that users must switch to an inferior device is probably NOT OK. Get the ADA to champion your/our cause... it's worthy of their support and so are we.

Lean forward, R.

"The best way to control your cow or sheep is to give them a large spacious meadow... and a Segway with all-terrain tires" - Suzuki Ralphi

marshai · 07-13-2003, 07:05 PM

When I went to my HT training session in NH in February, there was a gentleman there purchasing a few HTs for his family who was impressed to see how the HT greatly helped me (someone with MS) get around. He later e-mailed me to say he was trying to set up an arrangement with the MS Society (working through their Boston office) to donate some HTs for use by MS patients. The Boston MS group has been slow to act on this--they have contacted me intermittently to see about coming out to Williamstown to visit me to evaluate how useful the HT is for me and to try to come up with a profile for what type of MS patient would benefit from an HT--but they haven't managed to make the 3-hour trip yet. Perhaps other HT owners with MS might want to contact the MS Society to underscore how useful the HT has been for you--and if any of you are in the Boston area you might want to offer to have them see you in action. This might light a fire under them and get this plan going before this generous gentleman decides to put his money elsewhere! The person who has been in contact with me from the MS Society is Linda Guiod ([email protected]) --Marsha

QuadSquad · 07-13-2003, 08:35 PM

RWC,

I think one of the problems that will be difficult to overcome in terms of getting insurance companies to pay for HT's is LLC's stance that they are not medical devices and they don't really recommend that the disabled use them. I mean it's not as if they are vague about it they state that they are not for the disabled. I probably don't need to tell you or anyone else that insurance companies will look for any possible avenue to escape paying for anything. I don't know if LLC took this position because of their contractual obligations with J&J and the IBOT, but what ever their reasons they have created an uphill battle in terms of getting insurance to cover HT's.

In terms of ADA and the HT, I have spoken with an ADA compliance officer at the United States Department of Justice and it was her position that if the HT was a disabled person's mobility device there was absolutely nothing anyone could do to bar it. When we talked about this we talked in terms of San Francisco and while she stated that obviously it hadn't been tried in court that if I went there and got a ticket that she supposed that the opportunity would arise for them to get a decision. Obviously from my perspective the Federal Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco have been very supportive of the disabled causes. In short if I arrived on a HT, they can't stick me in a Jazzy scooter or a power wheelchair.

X-man · 07-14-2003, 07:49 AM

OK, Quadsquad.
Now do you thtink yu can post like the rest of us mortals.
You made your point, whatever that was, with the red color and bold.

X is my undergrad school.

QuadSquad · 07-14-2003, 09:46 AM

It's simply easier for me to read. Some books are written in fonts that are easier for those with vision impairments to read, and some not. I know that those with x-ray vision such as yourself (is that why you call yourself the X-man) can read the smaller fonts easily, but not everyone can. Obviously you're blessed without any disabilities and for that you can be thankful. And as for the fact that you did not understand my point, don't feel too bad, a lot of able-bodied people running around often don't understand issues with regard to the disabled. Just keep reading, and learning and eventually you'll get it.

Sunday · 07-14-2003, 10:40 AM

Quad-

Have you checked out ZoomText? That's what I use for enlarging the image on the computer. It works pretty well. If you're on a Mac, you can just press [Apple] and[*] at the same time to activate the magnifying feature that Apple was wise enough to include

Someday I'll have my Apple and eat it too.

Sunday

billc · 07-15-2003, 01:39 AM

Hi,

we're trying to "get" a Segway so tha it can be permanently available for people with disabilities to try. WE have an entire team here...Doctpr, engineer, physical therapist , occupational Therapist as well as super dooper overhead harness for safety etc.
It's a good deal to allow people to ytry it in a safe and "advisory" situation b4 they ruch out and buy one...We're giving up our time, just hope someone will give up some $ to donate a Segway.

Bill Contoyannis
Manager / Rehabilitation Engineer, REHAB Tech
Centre for Biomedical Engineering - Monash University

07-13-2003, 04:22 PM	#11
Sunday Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Logan, Utah Posts: 922	MMM. Generally, sit down scooters are covered under Medicare and insurance plans; so I consider that option to be already quite accessible. I am visually impaired, and there are many options available to me as well. Guide dogs, guide horse(yes! they do exist. Very cute little things too), and the traditional white stick. But like a Segway, a guide dog is a very expensive animal to raise and train. These animals are provided free of charge to the blind personreceiving it. So, in that spirit, I thought it would be neat if an organization existed that could provide a Segway for person desiring one. After all, I can go to all sorts of places with a stick, but a dog much more useful under many more conditions. Likewise, I've heard many people comment that the Segway is more useful and graceful to use than a tradtional sit down scooter. And like I said earlier, it's just a thought. I'm certainly not wealthy enough to do this! And I imagine it would be something that would take years to set up anyway. Looks like most folks posting here think it's a bad idea. So I guess I've learned what I wanted to by posting this question. Sunday

07-13-2003, 05:35 PM	#12
QuadSquad Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO, USA. Posts: 479	Albaby, While what you say is essentially true anyone having a television knows that the conventional seated scooters are available and covered by virtually all insurance plans including Medicare. (I really don't know if this is really true but it's certainly what they say on the commercials) it is also true that for many people that the scooters are their only viable option for a mobility device. The question is, is it the best option. Those associated with physical therapy have long known the importance of standing. Disabilities in and of themselves are disabling. I don't want to get into a long dissertation here, but there are many people who have a disabling event in their lives which prevents them from actually walking and they become the proverbial couch potato. Many are able to stand, but it takes 30 to 40% more strength to actually walk than just to stand. So the vicious circle begins. You know the old adage, "use it, or lose it" and in the instance of those who no longer stand because they cannot walk the deterioration of the muscles, particularly in the abdomen and the legs is accelerated and this even includes bone loss. So eventually even standing becomes difficult. So for those who can stand, and for those who can find any way of affording one, the HT is a vastly superior choice to the seated scooters. I won't even go into the emotional and psychological difference between standing, and being required to sit all the time. Clearly seated scooters have their place, but if insurance would cover an HT the world would be a better place./

07-13-2003, 06:10 PM	#13
jillmac Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: San Juan Capistrano, California, . Posts: 510	Albaby! Sorry but I intend staying out of a wheelchair and off a scooter as long as I possibly can! I have used a wheelchair at times when it has been absolutely necessary. I don't like using it. I also don't like the fact that people talk over my head or talk to whomever is pushing me rather than directly to me. On my Segway I am infinately more mobile (more maneuvarable in tight spaces and only take up the same 'footprint' as a 'normal' walking person. Additionally the world and his wife stop me to talk or just smile broadly. A much nicer experience all around. I have a distinct fear that once I start using a wheelchair on a regular basis I may end up HAVING to use it permanently. A case of 'if you don't use it you lose it.' At least with the Segway I primarily use it instead of CAR trips and also use to to get to places where are can park it and walk. It really is so much better for ones psche and self esteem to be able to Segway if you have the opportunity rather than use a wheelchair. Jill Nothing is inexplicable, merely unexplained..... Dr. Who

07-13-2003, 07:01 PM	#14
RWC Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Cardiff by the Sea (San Diego), California, USA. Posts: 165	Great Thread... I really liked Quad's comments on how disabling, generally, a particular disability can be... the escalation of overall immobility and disability. I gather that there is a downward curving slope of physical health and mobility for those with a critical disability. The curve can steepen or flatten depending on the nature of the disability combined with what the person is doing in reaction to it. Seems like the HT can help flatten the curve better than other mobility devices. This is VERY GOOD NEWS!!!! The hurdle with the HT is price. Perhaps insurance companies could be required to cover an HT if it was shown/proven to be a "curve-flattener". Question: How can a study be done? Who would do it? Why would they do it? Who can the group turn to for the next step? I really like the idea of getting HT's under the stance of people who cannot afford them. I think some combination of philanthropy and study project will make that happen. The other factor is legal use of the HT both for the general public and specifically the disabled. The more the general public is restricted, the more the general IMPRESSION will be that the HT is inapropriate for anyone, including disabled people. This will self-limit disabled people's thought of it as an alternative as well as eventual coverage by insurance companies. Another feature of restriction is aimed directly at disabled people. It has been common for public and private venues to ban Segways as long as they provide an alternative like a wheel chair. Is this Legal... locally... nationally? I think the sooner this gets cleared up, the better. This will help individuals and also the overall cause. IF it is true that (with the leverage of the ADA and local compliance officers) Segway use MUST be allowed for disabled gliders, then venues will have to allow them and the NOTION of them being banned will start to disappear at those venues. If disabled people demonstrate safe use at the local mall, then that can serve as evidence for use by others as well. I am not disabled but could become impaired and I think I will know and care about people, besides those on this forum, who will be impaired. It is important for ME that this opportunity, THIS RIGHT, is established. I at first looked at the Segway-Disabled "issue" merely in political terms... as a way to leverage the rights of gliding for everyone. Certainly our political foes have used it as a lever and I wanted to counter it. I have been feeling a little guilty about it... and perhaps so have our foes... who knows, maybe they really believe what they say. But lately, as I talk with more disabled people (and demo'd to a guy who just lit up just standing on it for a minute... before limping off into the sunset) and read threads like this one, I'm getting closer to each person and how each person is now benefitting and how SO MANY others can as well. Keep up the good threads and good work. Maybe contact national and local ADA people to speak up for you.. us. The HT IS something much better than ALL the rest of the devices (for those who can use it). Requiring that users must switch to an inferior device is probably NOT OK. Get the ADA to champion your/our cause... it's worthy of their support and so are we. Lean forward, R. "The best way to control your cow or sheep is to give them a large spacious meadow... and a Segway with all-terrain tires" - Suzuki Ralphi

07-13-2003, 07:05 PM	#15
marshai New Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Williamstown, Massachusetts, USA. Posts: 14	When I went to my HT training session in NH in February, there was a gentleman there purchasing a few HTs for his family who was impressed to see how the HT greatly helped me (someone with MS) get around. He later e-mailed me to say he was trying to set up an arrangement with the MS Society (working through their Boston office) to donate some HTs for use by MS patients. The Boston MS group has been slow to act on this--they have contacted me intermittently to see about coming out to Williamstown to visit me to evaluate how useful the HT is for me and to try to come up with a profile for what type of MS patient would benefit from an HT--but they haven't managed to make the 3-hour trip yet. Perhaps other HT owners with MS might want to contact the MS Society to underscore how useful the HT has been for you--and if any of you are in the Boston area you might want to offer to have them see you in action. This might light a fire under them and get this plan going before this generous gentleman decides to put his money elsewhere! The person who has been in contact with me from the MS Society is Linda Guiod ([email protected]) --Marsha

07-13-2003, 08:35 PM	#16
QuadSquad Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO, USA. Posts: 479	RWC, I think one of the problems that will be difficult to overcome in terms of getting insurance companies to pay for HT's is LLC's stance that they are not medical devices and they don't really recommend that the disabled use them. I mean it's not as if they are vague about it they state that they are not for the disabled. I probably don't need to tell you or anyone else that insurance companies will look for any possible avenue to escape paying for anything. I don't know if LLC took this position because of their contractual obligations with J&J and the IBOT, but what ever their reasons they have created an uphill battle in terms of getting insurance to cover HT's. In terms of ADA and the HT, I have spoken with an ADA compliance officer at the United States Department of Justice and it was her position that if the HT was a disabled person's mobility device there was absolutely nothing anyone could do to bar it. When we talked about this we talked in terms of San Francisco and while she stated that obviously it hadn't been tried in court that if I went there and got a ticket that she supposed that the opportunity would arise for them to get a decision. Obviously from my perspective the Federal Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco have been very supportive of the disabled causes. In short if I arrived on a HT, they can't stick me in a Jazzy scooter or a power wheelchair.

07-14-2003, 07:49 AM	#17
X-man Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: As a full time RVer, I'm on a road somewhere in the west Posts: 743	OK, Quadsquad. Now do you thtink yu can post like the rest of us mortals. You made your point, whatever that was, with the red color and bold. X is my undergrad school.

07-14-2003, 09:46 AM	#18
QuadSquad Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO, USA. Posts: 479	It's simply easier for me to read. Some books are written in fonts that are easier for those with vision impairments to read, and some not. I know that those with x-ray vision such as yourself (is that why you call yourself the X-man) can read the smaller fonts easily, but not everyone can. Obviously you're blessed without any disabilities and for that you can be thankful. And as for the fact that you did not understand my point, don't feel too bad, a lot of able-bodied people running around often don't understand issues with regard to the disabled. Just keep reading, and learning and eventually you'll get it.

07-14-2003, 10:40 AM	#19
Sunday Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Logan, Utah Posts: 922	Quad- Have you checked out ZoomText? That's what I use for enlarging the image on the computer. It works pretty well. If you're on a Mac, you can just press [Apple] and[*] at the same time to activate the magnifying feature that Apple was wise enough to include Someday I'll have my Apple and eat it too. Sunday

07-15-2003, 01:39 AM	#20
billc Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Melbourne, , Australia. Posts: 92	Hi, we're trying to "get" a Segway so tha it can be permanently available for people with disabilities to try. WE have an entire team here...Doctpr, engineer, physical therapist , occupational Therapist as well as super dooper overhead harness for safety etc. It's a good deal to allow people to ytry it in a safe and "advisory" situation b4 they ruch out and buy one...We're giving up our time, just hope someone will give up some $ to donate a Segway. Bill Contoyannis Manager / Rehabilitation Engineer, REHAB Tech Centre for Biomedical Engineering - Monash University

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