Merged "A Most Upsetting Incident" combined with "B&N and State of AZ"

[polo_pro]

Originally Posted by Eric Payne

I actually feel bad for that girl (her name was May). And if I were May, my first stop, after leaving the store in which I was previously employed, would have been Sammi's store... where I would walk up to her, and very loudly say: "You BITCH. You got me fired you <fill in expletive of choice here>."

Sounds like this matter has been "resolved" to some degree. I would point out that with a bit more effort, this unfortunate situation (for all parties involved) could be escallated to the corporate level where policy could be set (where a memo could be sent out to all stores indicating how to handle ADA situations including segways). Hopefully, the subtle hint of avoiding legal action (or unflattering press coverage) would motivate those higher up in the organization to do this.

ps - The only reason May go fired was because of her actions. Sammi attempted to perpetuate this injustice, and I do hope she is held equally accountable for May's actions.

Originally Posted by polo

... (t)hough IMHO, I feel any "natural conclusion" should involve firing one particular employee...

Bingo.

That is going to be my primary, and, perhaps, sole demand. And because I'm a reasonable person, I may not even insist upon her termination, as much as I insist upon her immediate transfer into a position in which she has no contact with customers.

When I was a kid, my father was an employer of, at any give time, 30 individuals who had direct association with the public. Though not retail, his business was centered around sales, specifically sales of an intangible product. If any person had approached my father with complaints of the nature I've taken to Barnes and Noble's "higher-ups," there would have been no question - that agent would have been immediately terminated, and that agent's personnel file would have reflected the true nature of the termination.

But then, that was 30 years ago, when the onus was still on everyone attempting to make every-day-life as good as it could be, for everyone, instead of everyone thinking everyone else is responsible for making their, individual, daily life best for them, as an individual.

Did you know an employee can still be fired for theft as a "termination for cause," but an employer may not, legally, state that as a reason for termination unless the employee is prosecuted? Nor can that information be transmitted in any reference asked for by prospective employers of that former employee?

That's absurd.

Eric Payne
Glendale, AZ

[Tarkus]

Originally Posted by Eric Payne

And Alan, had you found yourself in the same situation as I, and after gentle nudging, on either side, became a push... and then a shove... and then you find yourself in depositions, etc., in some sort of civil measure...

Exactly what authority issued the "International Handicap Symbol" you display on your Seg?

For all I know, you, personally, have gone through the correct channels to obtain a legitimate handicapped designation via your state's laws. I'm not even going to question that.

But there was another poster in this thread who freely admits to purchasing a "handicapped symbol" from Ebay, displaying that on their unit, and telling me "that's what (I) should do."

In essence, that poster is recommending I commit fraud and forgery of official documents to avoid being hassled by someone... but I've already gone through the official, legal, channels and the person who hassled me is in violation of already established law in doing the hassling.

The state of Arizona has already determined I'm handicapped. The state of Arizona has expanded the scope of Disability Mobility Assistance Devices to include "two wheeled, self-balancing electronic mobility devices." The state of Arizona has, officially, defined the Segway as a "two wheeled, self-balancing electronic mobility device." All businesses in the state, doing direct contact business with the public, must adhere to the guidelines of the Americans with Disabilities Act. One of those provisions is their business be accessible to those disabled who use a mobility device. Another is that they may not ask the nature of, nor ask for proof of, a person's disability.

I've gone through all the correct channels. Had the woman been the slightest bit more polite, I would, probably, have accommodated her request to see my "handicapped things," as I did have it with me. She, however, was brusque and rude, she asked me at moment where my blood sugar was taking a nose dive and after diabetic complications were causing intense pain in my feet. She was going to be <Ta-DAH!!!!> THE STORE MANAGER </Ta-DAH> and her authority was going to be absolute.

And, she's now finding out her authority was, at best, minimal. Yesterday afternoon, I was informed by the manager of the Barnes and Noble I telephoned, from the store in which this altercation was taking place, that the girl who had given me the local "sex line" phone number as their coprorate number, then later claimed corporate's number was "a secret" was terminated from her position, and did state the woman, Sammi, at the store I was in had contacted her, ordering her not to give corporate's number to me.

I actually feel bad for that girl (her name was May). And if I were May, my first stop, after leaving the store in which I was previously employed, would have been Sammi's store... where I would walk up to her, and very loudly say: "You BITCH. You got me fired you <fill in expletive of choice here>."

Eric Payne
Glendale, AZ

Eric,

Yes believe me in the last three years I have been in the position you described. They push and push and push.

As far as attaching the "Handicap Symbol", there is no fraud or any other violation of the law. Nobody has to issue you one. I use it for convenience, thats it. Nothing illegal about it.

I understand that the State has defined your disability but when you use a Segway you can't expect people to just "get it" right from the get go..The placard just helps out a bit.

The reality is that if you use a Segway as a mobility aid you need to be ready for questions from the uneducated from time to time.

Does that make me happy, no but at the moment thats where we are at.

As far as legal proceedings they can be costly and takes a ton of time. Then even after a decision it will need to be enforced.

There are those that use what most would call a "wheelchair" that are still fighting for the rights given to them in the ADA. They have been pushing for enforcement since 1991.

My point being that these things take time, no way around it.

Be Big,
Alan

[Phoenix Mike]

Sorry about your experience at B&N, I'm curious about your bus trip. What did it take to get Valley Metro to let the Seg on the bus, and how is it secured? Is it laid down in a wheelchair spot and and strapped?

I glide in the MetroCenter area alot. Mall security is OK with Segways as long as you wear a helmet. I've been in most stores in the mall, also no problems. Fry's Electronics, K-Mart, and the Phoenix Public Library in that area are also good to go on a Segway.

Mike,

Valley Metro has been a little spotty... at least up until Columbus Day.

(For those who are unfamiliar with mass transit in the Phoenix area: the "busy" lines, on a normal week-day, run every half hour. The "off-lines" run once an hour. On holidays and Sundays, the runs are once-an-hour for the "busy" lines, once an hour/limited service for the "off-lines". Many off-lines don't run at all. Some of the cities in the valley area, like Peoria, do not allow mass transit lines and, thus, have no bus service at all.)

On Columbus Day, I had to wait three hours for service. Valley Metro's office; three bus drivers in a row, literally, refused me entrance, even though I had a copy of Title 28 to show them. They simply refused to call dispatch. Finally, using my cell phone, I called Valley Metro, and explained the situation. The next bus stopped for me... and it was the first of the three drivers who had refused me service earlier. Apparently dispatch had called the drivers on the line to let them know I was, indeed, allowed to bring Gilligan onboard.

The next day, I was waiting for a bus to take me in range of my cardiologist's office. I left with PLENTY of time to spare (over two hours), thinking there'd be a repeat of Columbus Day. The very first bus stopped for me. He was actually empty. I boarded, and the driver said: "You know, I've never even seen one of those until this morning when we got a picture of one in our email..." Turns out, dispatch had pulled a graphic and sent an email to all their drivers saying "You must pick these up."

As for securing Segways, I turn the front of Gilligan toward the wall of the bus, put him on his kickstand and stand behind his platform, legs against the back of the platform, one hand on the CS, and my other hand on either a bar or hanging loop to keep me in position. One driver did ask me to lay him down flat (in fact, the driver who picked me up following the B&N incident). I did... and I think that's how I'll continue to do it, actually. Far less strain on me!

Now, Mike, I wonder... are you the Segger my spouse saw going into Fry's Electronics a few weeks ago (probably about a month ago now) on a Saturday? A "midnight blue" 180 with no bags? Out here at 67th/Peoria Aves area, had people say: "I've seen you all over... on 35th Avenue... how far does that thing go?" and it hasn't been me, so I'm just curious.

Eric Payne
Glendale, AZ

[Phoenix Mike]

Originally Posted by Eric Payne

Mike,


Now, Mike, I wonder... are you the Segger my spouse saw going into Fry's Electronics a few weeks ago (probably about a month ago now) on a Saturday? A "midnight blue" 180 with no bags? Out here at 67th/Peoria Aves area, had people say: "I've seen you all over... on 35th Avenue... how far does that thing go?" and it hasn't been me, so I'm just curious.

Eric Payne
Glendale, AZ

I have a black I2, but I'm up and down parts of 35th Ave several times a week. I also travel 31 Ave alot, stop into Fry's Electronics very often. I live near MetroCenter, it's about 7 miles to 35th and Bell, only 4 to Fry's. Max range on an I2 is stated as 20-24 miles.

[Sharkie]

Originally Posted by Eric Payne

But there was another poster in this thread who freely admits to purchasing a "handicapped symbol" from Ebay, displaying that on their unit, and telling me "that's what (I) should do."

In essence, that poster is recommending I commit fraud and forgery of official documents to avoid being hassled by someone... but I've already gone through the official, legal, channels and the person who hassled me is in violation of already established law in doing the hassling.

DO NOT put words in my mouth! I simply stated that I had purchased one of the placards that a SEGWAY dealer had been selling on EBay, and that it stopped a LOT of arguments! I am entitled to use a disability placard, and I do have one for the vehicle, but since I'm not PARKING, it has no place on my Segway! Don't take your frustration out on me, I'm not the one causing the problem here, I was only pointing out what I had done to stop the uninformed from accosting me.

I'm sorry you were given a hard time, and I have had difficult situations myself, but I have to take exception when people read things into what I've said that are not the case.

Jim

[KSagal]

First off, while it may be difficult, it is worth the while to sort out the good guys from the bad... WE should all get along...

Next, we should all recognise that several important topics have been covered in this thread. That is important to keep in mind.

Each of us have to decide for ourselves how we will deal with the ignorati among us. Some ignore, some blow past, some try to educate. Those of us who attempt to educate also do it differently. Some broadcast with a symbol, other choose not to. Some explain, some quote page and paragraph of the law, others choose other paths... None are perfect, none apply to all situations or all people.

I have expressed in the past, that I have a medical history and a weakness or two. My disability is not consistant, not full time, and often varies in intensity within a flare up. My disability has been recognised by the VA, the Federal Government, the Motor Vehicle department of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and others... However, I am not aware of any particular organization in this state or any other who seek to regulate who is disabled and who is not and who can display the famous blue symbol.

I am speaking in venues other than parking, motor vehicles, and other items that are otherwise regulated...

I know that there are definitions in the ADA among other legislations to describe who is protected by this law or that, but I am not aware of any set of requirements to display that symbol.

Further, what about part time gimps like me? This afternoon, I was at a school event, picking up my 2nd grade son, to take him to soccer. We were racing to the car, and I was in a full gallop, not a trot, full on sprint. My knee decided to just not lock one step... It collapsed and I went down like a ton of bricks, in full view of hundreds of people. (Scared a few) I got lucky, and was able to get back up relatively quickly, and with offers but no help, but I sure had a spectacular relaps...

Should I have had a symbol with me before starting to sprint? I usually know my limitations...err... I usually try not to embarrass myself too much, but I do not limit myself much at all. I have no problem going right to the edge, and occasionally that means a step over...

Now, most of the time that I use a seg is because I like it's green transportation. Occasionally, I use it for mobility reasons. Occasionally, I use my car because I don't feel like walking as well. (I have veteran's plates, not handicapped)

On another topic from earlier, Segways are such a good example of universal design, that they cannot easily be determined to be used by a person with challenges, or one without. More of us use them because of their other advantages than use them because they equalize a disability. This does make them different than most items. Cars are the only thing I can think of right away that can be modified to be used in both manners and are hard to determine the qualities of the driver from without...

So, with all this usless verbage, I say that the law protects people to choose the way they want to deal with the purposeful ignorant among us. I will not endorse anyone else limiting those choices for me.

[Nelda]

Karl, I couldn't agree with you more. Thank you for your post. It's so true that we all handle situations differently and we all try to do the best we can as diplomatically as we can.

Nelda

I've just spoken with a person connected to Barnes and Noble, in a position above store management, but below CEO. I promised this person I would not use their name if I wrote of this online; I won't, and will go even further on that pledge: I will not phrase anything in such a way as to indicate where this person's position might be in the B&N heirarchy. I will endeavor to drape this person in complete anonymity.

In a conversation with another person connected with Barnes and Noble yesterday, again in a position above store employee/management, I was informed they could no longer investigate my claims, as "(my) attorney" had contacted the store involved, requesting information. When I told that person, yesterday, that I had no attorney, and had not authorized anyone to act as my agent in any way, I was told, essentially, their hands were tied; since an attorney was now involved, it had to be handled through B&N's legal department, and the conversation would be terminated.

Immediately, my mind went to the obvious: Who would benefit from representing themselves as my agent? I couldn't see any "benefit" from my side of having the process thwarted, and - I felt - being forced to retain an attorney to contact B&N's legal department, since in any of my conversations with anyone connected with B&N - or, indeed, in this thread (and I'll go into why I include this thread in this statement in a paragraph or so) - indicates I was seeking any type of compensatory claim. In fact, in this thread, I state the only thing on which I would insist would be the termination of the B&N employee who treated me in the manner in which I was treated, or that employee's transfer to a non-customer contact area of employment.

But... an employee against whom such a complaint that requires B&N to investigate WOULD benefit from such an investigation to be stopped, at this level, and turned over to their legal department where, I was thinking, it would lay dormant until such time as an attorney who was authorized to represent me contacted them. When the person with whom I was speaking told me they could no longer discuss this matter, and the conversation would be terminated, that person also informed me the information concerning being contacted by an attorney did come from the store. This person - who, as I said, is at a level higher than that of store employee/manager - was not contacted by someone purporting to be my attorney, directly. Instead, the store where the situation occurred contacted this person and stated they had been contacted by someone claiming to be my attorney.

Outside of what I've already stated, I will draw no conclusion(s) from that. Instead, I immediately called another number I had, of an B&N employee who, again, is above store employee/manager, but below CEO. I was unable to speak with that person, but did leave a message, both with that person's assistant and in that person's voicemail, that I had no attorney, had never authorized anyone to contact the store on my behalf, and, quite frankly, stated I disbelieved such contact had ever been made, but that someone at the store thought there might be a benefit to them to make B&N believe such contact had been made.

Today, I worked my "To Do List," and got to the item concerning a follow-up phone call to the person I contacted yesterday, as I had received no response communications from them. In speaking with that person's assistant, I was referred to another B&N employee, again in a position above that of store employee/manager but below CEO.

We had a nice little conversation in which all aspects of what had transpired, to date, were discussed. In reference to a Segway being allowed in their stores, this person told me it was being researched by their "ADA department" and legal," but until such time as a final determination on their part is made, Segways would not be allowed in their stores. I told this person I was fine with that, as AZ law expands the ADA to include Segways, so I was confident what the outcome would be. This person indicated only one objection to me in our conversation concerning Segways, that of it going 12 miles an hour. This person was unaware, it seemed, that electric wheelchairs also go 12 miles an hour.

This person also indicated to me the internal investigation concerning my allegations of employee conduct were continuing, and they hoped to have research done, and get back to me with some sort of resolution, "in a couple of days." I understand the difficulty this person is going to have in that task, and told them that would be fine.

BUT.... (and you knew this was coming, huh?)

At the beginning of our conversation, this person kept mentioning "(my) blog." I told them I didn't maintain a blog.

"I'm reading it right now," the person said, and started quoting from it.

This person was referring to THIS thread. I told them this was not my blog, but was instead a community of Segway owners and, I thought, was a closed community. I asked who notifed them of this thread, as I didn't believe it came up in search engines, outside of the search engine on this site itself.

I was incorrect there; this thread is picked up by Google, using the correct keywords.

But there's another problem. I go by my middle name in day-to-day life. Not my first name. My father and I share the same first (and last, obviously!) names, our middle names are different, so all my life, I've been "Eric" Payne, as opposed to FIRSTNAME Payne. For legal purposes, though, I do use my first name on documents, etc.

B&N has my LEGAL name.

I post under the name I use in daily life.

This thread does NOT come up in Google using my "legal name" barnes and noble and Segway as search criteria.

It DOES come up using "Eric Payne" barnes and noble segway as criteria.

It also comes up, using that same '"Eric Payne" barnes and noble segway' criteria, as being mirrored to http://boardreader.com/tp/Barnes+and+noble.html, which seems to be nothing but a compilation of people's postings who've said anything negative about Barnes and Noble on the web.

As I was actually speaking with the person at the time, and since that person was, indeed, reading from my postings on Segway Chat (this person even quoted from threads in which I participated, not involving Barnes and Noble, specifically my posting concerning Maricopa County's Valley Transit), I terminated the conversation when I discovered that mirrored site.

Just a heads up.

If someone wishes to verify the information I've given concerning search engines, please contact me in private, and I will give you my legal name, which is the name given to Barnes and Noble. In fact, at this point, I would appreciate someone contacting me, and saving the results of those searches, independent of myself.

Thanks.

Eric Payne
Glendale, AZ

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