Crazy Beggar Woman Lobs Trash at Me & Herbie...

[jryan]

Pam, I must agree with you that funding is scarce and essentially I think that if there would be more funding to help the mentally ill we might see more strides. My mom has worked in human services all 26 of her working years. She has helped the mentally disabled in several ways and has actually changed Iowa law. She has never made much money doing this and the fact is that very few people that choose this line of work ever will even though they are strongly making a difference in the world. My mom is currently working at the Madison Area Rehabilitation Center which is in all aspects a great place. What the MARC Center does is provide jobs and a place for the mentally ill to go and just have fun and work and contribute as much as they can for society. Unfortunately for every billion dollars we spend in Iraq several million gets cut in several, in my opinion, more important endeavors. The MARC Center alone lost $250,000 in government support as they are completely funded by the government. Now this center is a win win for the State of WI. The mentally disabled get a chance to actually live and have a great life and make some money. The state gets paid by the jobs and keeps a cut and even makes a profit. The problem comes where they need more profit so they cut the budget. Starting Jan. 2008 all employees had to pay 100% of their insurance premiums (at the group rate which is better than individual but still pretty crappy), hours were cut from 40 a week to 32 for everyone (causing people to have no option but to leave and now one person has to do 3 peoples jobs), wages were cut, and they are on a hiring freeze. So what happens now. Now they have to choose which people need the service the most and cut the rest. It's awful and unfortunately clear across the board human services is a dieing field. Budget cuts are making it inefficient and the mentally ill just don't get as much care as they need. This is a shame an saddens me. Common decency would tell you these people need more help toss politics aside. Now let's talk about the State of WI. Tommy Thompson was the governor of WI for several years. He was, of course a republican, and a very crooked one. He used state money to buy land for his own personal gain. He later cut human service programs left and right. He was the worst governor ever for human services and also ethics. What happened to good old Tommy. Bush got elected President and knowing he would most likely face criminal charges Tommy took Bush's offer and became the director of Health and Human Services (the field he was worst at in WI). Along with this position Bush, another crooked republican, issued him a pardon and very little was ever spoken of his criminal investigations. Meanwhile his Lt. Governor took over and did a decent job! Then along comes Governor Jim Doyle, former attorney general, current democrat, and also a personal friend of mine from before he was fmous in the state. Gov. Doyle immediately dispursed more funds to human services and education. He spent money on increasing jobs which left less people unemployed and saved the state millions! Then along comes the war and of course as we spent more money on that no governor in the world could make up for the state cuts and everything clear across the board was cut, including human services. We need more funding because with funding comes more help for people with mental disabilities. Drugs can only do so much! But hey, maybe if we're lucky America will wake up and vote someone who uses the word "compassionate" and means it for president!

Jeremy Ryan

[Dennis Tracey]

Originally Posted by KSagal

Life is not easy. Life is not fair. Life is still the responsibility of the individual who is living it.

Some may say that a person sitting in their car, at a red light is 100% not at fault if someone comes up behind them and rear ends their car...
I do not agree. That person chose that route, chose to be at that light that day, chose to drive that direction, chose to stop at the light, and many other contributing factors. Legal liability is not the same as responsiblity.

Karl, I respect a lot of what you say, however the above statement is pure BULL.

That sort of logic says that I should not get out of bed in the morning because I might cause someone who is careless inconvienence by my having to drive on the streets of America. I am not responsible for the careless actions of others, only for my own.

I have the right to be there and have NO responsibilty for such an accident. If I live my life worrying about my being responsible for the careless acts of others, I will not be able to live,period. There are too many people out there who simply don't give a fig about the rights of others and will run roughshod over us all who live by the rules.

I have enough to atone for without beating myself up for being in the way of those who may or may not choose live or drive responsibly.

[KSagal]

Originally Posted by Dennis Tracey

Karl, I respect a lot of what you say, however the above statement is pure BULL.

That sort of logic says that I should not get out of bed in the morning because I might cause someone who is careless inconvienence by my having to drive on the streets of America. I am not responsible for the careless actions of others, only for my own.

I have the right to be there and have NO responsibilty for such an accident. If I live my life worrying about my being responsible for the careless acts of others, I will not be able to live,period. There are too many people out there who simply don't give a fig about the rights of others and will run roughshod over us all who live by the rules.

I have enough to atone for without beating myself up for being in the way of those who may or may not choose live or drive responsibly.

I did not say that legal accountability is the same as responsibility.

THIS exact thing is what almost happened to me in 1982.

I was sitting at a red light, and happened to look into the mirror and saw a white ford van barrelling in, and I instantly thought that he could not stop before rear-ending me. I looked, and hit the gas!

I was in a convertible, and it is never a good thing to get hit like that anyway... This one was a 1968 Mopar, with a 440 magnum. I lit it up, and tore thru the intersection, in a clear burn out, or accelleration skid. THe Van followed me thru the intersection, in a locked up, decelleration skid.

As fate would have it, there was a cop at the intersection, facing us, and took notice as we went thru the red light. He flashed lights and siren, and we both pulled over.

As I was front car, he came to me first, and I did my best to explain that I ran the light to avoid being hit. I do not think he believed me. He took my liscense and registration, and then went to the van. As I watched, he spoke with that driver, and took papers from him as well...

Instead of going to his car, with both sets of papers as I would have expected, he came back to my car, gave me my papers, and told he that he felt the van driver was drunk, and that I was lucky to have had the opportunity to see what was about to happen, and have the reflexes and the car to be able to get out of the way... He let me go.

As I left (after storing the papers) I watched in the rear view as he had the guy get out of his van and I suspect to do a field sobriety test...

Now... I am not talking about finances, or who the law would say who should pay for damages, I am talking about real responsiblility. Had I truely had no responsibility in this event, I should have had no ability to affect the outcome. Had I been hit, the cop would have instantly assumed me the victim. Since I took control of my own situation, he was not so sure.

Since I changed what surely would have been a serious accident, into a dialog with a cop, and then went on my way, how can you say that I had no responsiblitiy, if I had just sat there, and got hit?

Before I had this particular life I have now, with wife and kids, (and segways...) I was a single man, with far less responsibilities. I rented apartments in several different towns, based on jobs or other wants and needs of my own. I am not a criminal, yet, when apartment hunting, I did take criminal activity into account. If I lived here or there, would I be nervous if my girlfriend or sister came to visit, and had to walk to the door? I surely did not plan to hurt them, but felt it was part of my decision making to decide on acceptable risk.

Dennis, I don't know where you live, but haven't there ever been a time in your life when you decided to take prudent action based on what you felt the other guy might do? Do you decide to go for a drive to see that new movie during a blizzard, or wait? Do you go to the market for catsup during the hurricane, or decide to eat this meal without, because the risk is not worth the reward?

I live in the north east, and ice and snow are a regular event in the winter. I am far more scared of the other driver's inability to drive in bad weather than in my own ability to control my car. This is a major factor in my deciding to drive at this time or not. How about you?

I taught Skydiving for a dozen years. I also feel that a person has got to be responsible. That does not mean that they cannot do anything and need hide under the bed. It means you have to make value judgements, and be ready to own up to the consequenses... I taught a potentially dangerous sport, and take lots of pride in the fact that in several hundred and possibly thousands of students, I never broke one. (Some did go on to break a bone after they left my care) I continued to jump after I got married. I continued to jump after I broke a bone in my back. ( A starburst fracture of one of my Vertebre) I stopped jumping when my first child was born. I did not feel any more likely to hurt myself, I just did not think babies and skydiving was a good fit. (I will likely go back to jumping or piloting small planes when the kids are in college or beyond)

I never advocating hiding from life, because living it may expose you to other people's bad choices. I just advocate being responsible for your own actions and decisions, and not saying that someone else is responsible to fix the consequences of our life choices...

[pam]

I wonder what you would be saying now if there had been a car in front of you at the light, or another coming across the intersection...

Pam

[Five-Flags]

Originally Posted by pam

I wonder what you would be saying now if there had been a car in front of you at the light, or another coming across the intersection...

Pam

I was in the same situation as Karl...

Stopped at a red light, with my fiancee beside me and two of her girlfriends in the back seat. We had been out celebrating one week before our marraige in 1969. I looked in the mirror and saw a Sherman tank (actually a Studebaker sedan) racing toward me. I threw my arm behind my fiancee's head & neck (this was before headrests or bucket seats) and floored it after looking. I wasn't as fortunate as Karl, though. He still hit us on the other side of the intersection at an estimated 75 miles per hour. The investigators figured I got up to about 25 mph before the impact. His speedometer was frozen at 100+ on impact. A drunk! No sign of any skidmarks, never tried to stop. Needless to say, we were all aching through the wedding one week later. But we're still married, 38 years later!

My thoughts at the time were similar to Karl's story. I felt it was my responsibility to do all within my power to prevent or minimize the accident. Had there been a car in front of me, I would have blown my horn & tried to push through to reduce the relative impact velocity. If there had been cross traffic, I would not have had those options; I would not have the right to endanger someone else without due cause. You can only work with the options that present themselves. But you DO have the responsibility to be aware of your surroundings and make the most of your opportunities, whatever you are doing in life.

[KSagal]

I have been rear ended in that situation. (I am an engineer, and for 25+ years I drive to clients to do my job. For a decade or so I was averaging about 45 to 50 thousand miles a year)

I have seen the hit comming, when I could not avoid it, because of other cars. So? I still chose my profession with the need to drive so much, I chose the route, etc...

I was even in a situation, where I saw it about to happen, yelled for someone to move, they did not react, and got hit, (we both did) and that person who reacted too slowly unfortunately got hurt bad enough for an ambulance... SO? I did my best to minimize the accident, before it happened, and thru no fault of my own, was unable to be successful.

By the way, I hurt my back while providing a service and consideration to others, instead of looking out for myself, and I feel that while I did hurt myself, I recovered well from that broken back at least in part because it happened when I was helping others instead of myself...

And now you know. Had that situation happened as you suggested, I would and do feel the same...

Edit: After posting my response to Pam, I read the response from Five-Flags, and like his better than mine! Well said ! Thank you.

[jryan]

It can be said that it is partially your responsibility when you get in an accident. I suppose it is you responsibility to constantly check your mirrors and try to predict what other drivers will do. In no way is it always even 1% your fault though! What about passengers? I admit I have been in several accidents many of which were because of me being dumb and stupid but that comes with being young. I've learned since then and had a lot of time to "grow up" roadwise! I do not see where my most recent accident fits in. I decided to ride with a friend of mine, a responsible driver. I was in the back seat. Another driver, probably high, but not drunk turned in front of us so close that our front bumper hit theirs. It would have been impossible for the driver of the car I was in to stop this accident. There is nothing I as the passenger could have done. I just don't see how this was either morally or legally my fault or even the driver of the car I was in's fault. Legally it wasn't but it seems as though it is being implied that in some non legal way it was partially one of our faults. The second part comes in where after something like this happens and I am inept to care for myself sshould I just sink into a bottomless pit. I think it is the ethical duty of society to help those who cannot help themselves. This is why a Hospital cannot trn you down for emergency services because of ability to pay! Luckily now I am to a oint where I can take care of myself but it wasn't always that way. To say it was partially my responsibility therefore I would have to handle it myself would be just cruel. I feel if you are in a position to help someone with basic NEEDS (not wants), and that person is not in a position to help themselves you have an ethical duty to help that person! And even if the person is struggling due to something that is there fault does that mean that others should not help? I think not. People make mistakes! This is why when I cruise down State Street in Madison I always take at least one homeless person out to eat with me. Why? Because maybe money isn't the right thing for that person, maybe money will not help as much as they think it will. But either way if they cannot afford food a basic neccessity to live (whether their fault or not) I feel a moral obligation to help them get that food. This is how i live my life, if I am in a position to help I will.


Jeremy Ryan

[pam]

I agree with Five Flags, also. We all have a responsibility to be aware of our situation and do the best to mitigate negative situations. Some we cannot mitigate. Some we can.

Sometimes, like Jeremy, we're passengers and have little control (other than getting into a car with a responsible driver).

Pam

Karl,

I understand what you're saying, but don't agree with it. It's natural to feel "guilt" after any type of bad happenstance occurs, but that psychological guilt is, merely, a coping mechanism. That guilt in no way implies any degree of responsibility - morally or legally.

Using your analogy, the poor of Sri Lanka are responsible for the death toll of that tsunami Christmas Day, three years ago. What... if they had just done that little bit more, they wouldn't have been as poor and would no longer have been living in that area when the tsunami hit?

The passengers of the four 9/11 flights... partly responsible for the WTC and Pentagon deaths simply by virtue of being passengers on those flights?

Fifty years ago, Dr. Jonas Salk crafted his famous polio vaccine, leading to the almost complete eradication of that strain of polio. That would make him somehow responsible for the newer "super strains" of polio that have mutated from that original strain because of the vaccine?

The list is endless, but I hope the point comes across: Sometimes, things actually do "just happen." And if those things are "bad" and "hurtful," then, by definition, there's going to be a victim.

[KSagal]

Again, people are interchanging words that do not have the same meaning...

Liability is a legal term. It is not the same as responsibility. Fault is a relative term. It is not the same as responsibiliy...

It is possible to be not at all at fault for an accident, and still take responsibility. You can be partially responsible for an event, and not be liable at all.

In the events at the red lights that I mentioned and Five Flags mentioned, neither of us were by any stretch of the definitions at fault or liable, if we had not acted. The laws are fairly clear here, we would have been in the right. We would likely be dead, but in the right.

Taking responsibility for what we do does not mean we do not make mistakes, nor does it mean we will not forgive others their mistakes. It simply means that we do not leave our destiny entirely in the hands of another.

There is a story in the Talmud ( a religious text ) that simply paraphrased says that God did not part the Red Sea on the Jews escape from Egypt till the men were in the water over their knees. I recall some debate as to the body part, knees or neck...

THe point was, Devine intervention or not, those guys were taking what responsibility they could, they were making the committment, they were taking the plunge...

I have seen hungry people share their last morsel, when another arrives. I have seen fat lazy people hoard food for no reason. THis talk about responsibility is not a talk about fault, compassion, or if people should help each other or not.

I am very involved in my local town. I serve on volunteer boards in the town hall, I help with scouts, I'm a soccer coach (A real stretch for me, as I do not know the game, or rather, did not till I started coaching, and then had to learn fast) and serve on some other organizations that are 100% volunteer where we banded together to help deal with an envionmental issue in my area. I am active in my kid's school, have used my local telivision show to activate people and inform them to help with library issues, housing for the aged or needy, helped the historical society to preserve a 300+ year old farmhouse that was slated for demolition. THe list goes on and on. I got my neighborhood on the short path to sidewalks, where they would not have ever been built here but for me. (THis was long before I ever heard of segways, this was for the neighborhood kids)

For good or bad, I volunteered and worked hard in SEG America, where there was a lot of talk, but precious few who actually stepped up and did any work.

I continue to do what I do, but among other things, I do them because I see them as being part of my responsibility to my community, part of my doing the Dad thing, part of what my signature line says... I believe we should leave a place a bit better for having had us pass. We should contribute a bit, rather than take a bit, if we can. And ALL of us can.

Some can contribute more than others. Some can contribute time, some money, some effort, some expertise, some phone support, some just good Karma. I am not judging that contribution, and do not care to have others judge mine. (As has been done here recently on this forum)

Contributing what you can, when you can, is the responsible thing to do.

Taking responsibility for your own actions is not as foreign as some here are making it sound... Have you never told the driver of the car you are in to slow down? Ever pointed out a dangerous situation that you felt that the driver may not have seen or is not negotiating well? Have you never suggested to a younger or less experienced person the wisdom that you learned the hard way, in an effort to take the responsible position to minimize their exposure to risk? Of course we all have!

Jeremy has pointed out some very compassionate activities he performs. THat is great. I too have offered food to homeless folk, and have bought same. Sometimes it is appreciated, sometimes not. THat does not reflect on the value of it, even if someone would rather make another bad decision right in front of me, a burger is better than a buck, at least from me...

To get to Eric's accusations and mischaracterizations of my point, I will attempt to give an example...

I never said anything that is remotely like the poor in Sri Lanka are responsible for that title wave, or that they are somehow more guilty for being poor. RIch people on holiday also died. However, a person who sat on the beach afterwards and waited for help has less of my respect, than a person who went around and gathered palm leaves, and made a crude hut for him and family to protect them till better accomodations can be had... And the government refusing aid workers from Israel was not only irresponsible, but criminal, or should have been.

The passengers on those 911 flights is a good and interesting example. It is not reasonable for people on those New York flights to have any clue what was about to happen. Terrorism like that was not yet in the reasonable expectation. However, less than an hour later, in Pennsylvania, the situation was already different. Those folks had the advantage of knowing via cell phones what was going on. They did take a very high level of responsibility and the result was VERY different. YOU brought it up. Liability in New York, no. Responsibility? Hard to say... Liability in Pennsylvania, no. Responsibility? Absolutely and resoundingly yes!

Dr. Salk? Responsible for a remarkable solution to the problem of his day? Yes. Responsible for the fact that it was not perfect? Also yes, but no liability. He did far more than could be reasonably expected of him, even if in the end it still showed that the job was not completely done...

I believe that being responsible for one's own actions is the right thing to do. No one is saying that anyone has to be responsible for each and every thing that ever happens near, to, around, in their observance, etc. All I am saying is that each choice we make, has a number of ripple affects throughout the rest of their adventure, and often the rest of their lives. Making that choice carries with it the responsibility to also deal with each of the ripples to the best of your abiity.