08-15-2011, 04:56 PM | #31 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 602
|
You work or don't eat. If you can not work we will feed you. We will do it locally so we know what is going on.
|
08-15-2011, 05:04 PM | #32 |
Glides a lot, talks more...
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Pelham, NH, USA.
Posts: 10,356
|
Worked for two hundred years. Only the last few decades was it a federal issue. The farther the control gets from the applications, the worse the government does with that control. This makes sense to me. (but there should be a framework of oversight for those local officials who make the decisions)
__________________
Karl Ian Sagal To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin) Bene factum melior bene dictum Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well. |
08-15-2011, 05:09 PM | #33 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Freedonia!
Posts: 1,703
|
Quote:
And.. dear Rolacoy, good luck when you try to put the jobless on WPA type programs, and your local contractors scream bloody murder that it's unfair competition. What will you do then? All these "I have zero experience with this, but I'm dern tootin' sure that the solution is so easy that it only takes two sentences to describe" folks eventually run into reality. |
|
08-16-2011, 12:21 AM | #34 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 175
|
I thought "welfare" was supposed to help people get back on their feet not become a full time "job"
__________________
Gary |
08-16-2011, 02:55 AM | #35 | |
Advanced Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Marin County, CA
Posts: 3,783
|
Quote:
But there IS a fair bit of local control. I don't remember how it works in MA, but here in CA, it's administered at the county level, under state laws, within a Federal framework. Federal funds, though -- and I think that's a mistake.
__________________
Bob Kerns: To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Obviously, we can't have infinite voltage, or the universe would tear itself to shreds, and we wouldn't be discussing Segways. |
|
08-16-2011, 02:57 AM | #36 | |
Advanced Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Marin County, CA
Posts: 3,783
|
Quote:
On the other hand, if they can demonstrate they can do it more economically and better than the government can, we may have a deal.
__________________
Bob Kerns: To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Obviously, we can't have infinite voltage, or the universe would tear itself to shreds, and we wouldn't be discussing Segways. |
|
08-16-2011, 03:54 AM | #37 | |||||
Advanced Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Marin County, CA
Posts: 3,783
|
Quote:
But what I've seen, requires listing ALL people living within the same household, and their incomes and resources. I've not seen any hint of an anti-marriage incentive. If there is, I'll join you in opposing it. In other words, I'm challenging you on the facts here, not the principle. Quote:
And in a lot of cases, she may not KNOW who the father is. Yeah, I know....but she's not asking us our opinion, is she? Reproduction is a basic human right, and not one for government control. But there is framework in place, in at least the states I'm familiar with, for the mother to go after the father for money. And generally, she'll benefit from that -- at a minimum, we should not reduce her welfare on a dollar-for-dollar basis, or we remove all incentive for her to do so. But there may BE no money. Worse, having the father involved may be a very bad thing. Deadly, even. But here's the thing. The per-child money we're talking about is FOR THE CHILDREN. So basically, you're proposing punishing the children for the sins of the mother. Quote:
Which is good, as far as it goes -- we get efficient production of inexpensive goods, and by that metric, we are among the wealthiest people, individually, in the history of the planet. But there's a dark side here, too. Several, actually, but let's consider money and politics. When the rich can get richer by manipulating the political process, things go awry. What we have is not entirely capitalism. There's an unholy marriage of corporatism and stateism, directly undermining the free market. And I made the point earlier that in many communities, people do NOT feel they have upwardly-mobile hopes. Fixing any flaws in welfare won't fix that. We need to create positive incentives, positive role models -- and real opportunities. I'm not sure government is the institution for the job, but someone needs to tackle it. Ideas welcome! Quote:
If the opportunities are there, then people will take them, because welfare isn't nearly as nice as affluence and prestige. The problem is --the opportunities have to BE there --and people have to SEE them, and be ABLE to take advantage of them. Changing the downside incentives isn't going to solve any of that, beyond maybe getting them to look a bit harder. It's going to take something else. Broadly speaking, it's going to take education. A broader type of education than we teach in school. I'd lay a lot of the blame for poverty on a failure of our education system. And I'd lay a whole lot of that blame on the massive consolidation and centralization of the educational systems in our cities. LAUSD is absolutely insane. If I were raising kids in Boston -- I'd move to, say, Lincoln or Sudbury, at least based on the Lincoln-Sudbury district of 30 years ago. It was absolutely pathetic, living in Charlestown, and watching the locals griping about integration and busing, when I'd have given anything to have my kids bused out of Charlestown (if I had kids back then). Except local control. Although on second thought, the type of person who lived in Charlestown 30 years ago, well, I'm not sure I'd have wanted to try to fix a school with them. But at least, with local control, if you're doing it wrong, and your neighbor is doing it right, you tend to run out of excuses. Of course, we have evidence within a few miles of here that running out of excuses doesn't fix schools, either. Nor does money. Quote:
But actually, I wouldn't be hard pressed. Norway. 20% higher on a purchasing-power basis, in fact. AND they paid off their national debt in the late 1990's and have been accumulating surplus ever since! Still, I wouldn't consider that a counter-example. There are many factors involved, of which the degree of socialism is just one of many. There's plenty of examples of socialism gone bad. And if personal wealth is our metric, we should model ourselves after Qatar. Let's see, I'll be the Emir, and we just need massive supplies of something in desperate demand around the world.
__________________
Bob Kerns: To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Obviously, we can't have infinite voltage, or the universe would tear itself to shreds, and we wouldn't be discussing Segways. |
|||||
08-16-2011, 03:58 AM | #38 |
Advanced Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Marin County, CA
Posts: 3,783
|
Oh, I meant to refer you to the food stamp application for the state of CA:
http://www.calfresh.ca.gov/entres/fo...h/DFA285A1.PDF Every welfare application that I've looked at has been roughly similar in approach. Why do I look at welfare applications? Simple: I like to fact-check before I post. Note that there is NO anti-marriage incentive there, and no exception for listing your live-in boyfriend's income. There is an awful lot of mythology around welfare. A lot of it is from the political parties, trying to get your vote by trumping things up -- basically, lying for votes. It's a very successful strategy. Odd, but people actually tend to believe what politicians tell them, if it aligns at all with their world view.
__________________
Bob Kerns: To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Obviously, we can't have infinite voltage, or the universe would tear itself to shreds, and we wouldn't be discussing Segways. |
08-16-2011, 04:08 AM | #39 | |
Advanced Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Marin County, CA
Posts: 3,783
|
I also meant to respond to this, since you directly asked:
Quote:
I've done artificial intelligence, UI toolkits, early tools for international text and language processing. But I've also done build engineering and QA. I've made my own products, and I've helped others make theirs a success. I've even been a manager. But I've never been a political party hack, unlike my namesake in Lancaster County, PA. So no, I guess I've never worked beneath my station.
__________________
Bob Kerns: To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Obviously, we can't have infinite voltage, or the universe would tear itself to shreds, and we wouldn't be discussing Segways. |
|
08-16-2011, 04:50 AM | #40 | |||
Advanced Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Marin County, CA
Posts: 3,783
|
Quote:
I'm talking about the entire social institution -- all of the above, but also the whole social matrix around schools -- the expectations, the parental and community support, the connections between businesses and schools, and the opportunities for careers and other benefits that education opens up. When a kid's view of his educational choices is to become a drug dealer or a professional athlete -- well, there aren't many professional athletes, and only a few make any real money at it. But if a kid can learn to make things -- well, now THAT is doing something about the cycle of poverty. Whether it be artwork, music, buildings -- or robots, bridges, rockets, or software. Things like Dean Kamen's FIRST program. Young Makers. Apprenticeships, internships, computer clubs... I claim that these do more good than you could possibly do by tweaking welfare incentives -- even if they were constructed the way you believed they are. ------- BTW, here's the MA food stamp application. Note that while they do ask marital status -- they also ask for everyone who lives with you. http://www.mass.gov/Eeohhs2/docs/dta/c_snapapp_eng.pdf Note these sentences: Quote:
Quote:
http://www.massresources.org/files/TABA-1.pdf The WIC income criteria (including being based on household income) are identical to the foodstamp income criteria. It doesn't seem to me like our opinions are all that different. Our FACTS, however...
__________________
Bob Kerns: To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Obviously, we can't have infinite voltage, or the universe would tear itself to shreds, and we wouldn't be discussing Segways. |
|||
Tags |
riot uk |
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 3 (0 members and 3 guests) | |
|
|