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Old 08-15-2010, 01:12 PM   #1
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Default Conservatives seek violation of Constitution & law

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As a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country." That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances," he said. "This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakable." Barack Obama
The president is not saying that it is a good idea to build the mosque. He is not saying he is in favor of building the mosque. He is saying that it is the right of the property owner to build the mosque, whether some people like it or not.

Yet, he received the predictable political response.

Republican strategist Ed Rollins, who was the National Campaign Director for the Reagan-Bush campaign in 1984 and the national campaign chairman for the Mike Huckabee presidential campaign in 2007, called Obama's comments "probably the dumbest thing that any president has said since Michael Dukakis said it was okay to burn the flag."

Ed Gillespie, former Republican National Committee chairman, also weighed in. "I thought it was a revealing comment by the president. He said that the 70% of Americans who are opposed to this controversial imam building this mosque at ground zero are denying the freedom of Muslims in this country. That's how he cast it," Gillespie said.

Former Republican Sen.Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania said, The imam is "ignoring the will of the American public, as by the way, Barack Obama is by siding with him," he said.

All of those opposing the construction of the mosque are choosing to ignore the Constitution of the United States, and more recently the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act of 2000. The latter creates an almost insurmountable legal burden for denying the construction of a church.

One can argue whether it is a good idea for the mosque to build in this location, but there is no legitimate legal argument to withhold permission to build. Rick Santorum should, by this point in his life, understand that the "will of the people" is embodied in the Constitution of the United States.

He, and the others, are using the issue for political advantage. Wow. What a big surprise THAT is.
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Old 08-15-2010, 09:30 PM   #2
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It is a political football.

Obama has spoken often about zoning issues in cities and towns where he does not live.

Many feel it is an insult to the memory of those murdered on 9-11 by Muslims (We can call them whatever we like, but they called themselves Muslim Fundamentalists) to build a mosque in the shadow of that site.

There are legal things, and there are things that are just not right, and they often are not related.
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Old 08-15-2010, 11:15 PM   #3
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Many feel it is an insult to the memory of those murdered on 9-11 by Muslims (We can call them whatever we like, but they called themselves Muslim Fundamentalists) to build a mosque in the shadow of that site.
Yeah, it's a political football, all right, being kicked by conservatives playing the 9/11 card once again, (while voting against helping 9/11 responders at the same time).

People can feel any way they want about building a mosque near Ground Zero.

I expect that those same people would feel that it is an insult to allow a Catholic church to be built in any town where a priest violated little boys, and surely any town where Eric Rudolph killed people with bombs on behalf of his church. Right?

And surely they would think that Baptist churches should not be allowed in any city where the Westboro Baptist Church has violated local sensibilities with their outrageous behavior. Right?

With just a little more research, I could easily find heinous acts by some members of just about any organized religion.

However, one would hope that "many" realize that Muslim fundamentalists brought down the twin towers, not "Muslims" in general. This is a distinction that KSagal does not make adequately clear. One does not hold all Muslims accountable for that despicable act, any more than one holds all members of other faiths responsible for the acts of their fundamentalists.

"Many" can hold any opinion they want. They can think it inappropriate to build there, and they can try to convince the builders of the mosque to relocate, but they have no legal right to force them to do so.
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Old 08-16-2010, 10:32 PM   #4
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Yeah, it's a political football, all right, being kicked by conservatives playing the 9/11 card once again, (while voting against helping 9/11 responders at the same time).

People can feel any way they want about building a mosque near Ground Zero.

I expect that those same people would feel that it is an insult to allow a Catholic church to be built in any town where a priest violated little boys, and surely any town where Eric Rudolph killed people with bombs on behalf of his church. Right?

And surely they would think that Baptist churches should not be allowed in any city where the Westboro Baptist Church has violated local sensibilities with their outrageous behavior. Right?

With just a little more research, I could easily find heinous acts by some members of just about any organized religion.

However, one would hope that "many" realize that Muslim fundamentalists brought down the twin towers, not "Muslims" in general. This is a distinction that KSagal does not make adequately clear. One does not hold all Muslims accountable for that despicable act, any more than one holds all members of other faiths responsible for the acts of their fundamentalists.

"Many" can hold any opinion they want. They can think it inappropriate to build there, and they can try to convince the builders of the mosque to relocate, but they have no legal right to force them to do so.
You make an analogy about building Catholic Churches, and it is clearly a straw man. Catholics did not murder 3000 people saying that Jesus told them to do it. Catholic people all over the place publicly decried the wrongs done by some in that faith. Yes, it was bad, and I lost respect for the power structure within the catholic church, but not with catholics, who en-mass publicly said it was wrong.

I had to look Eric Rudolph up. He has no affiliation as a representative of the Catholic Church. He did not even say he was one.


Muslims have not expressed condemnation en mass over the actions taken by these murders, who did say that Alla told them to do it.

Westboro Baptist Church is full of hateful mean people. They do not in any way represent Baptists to anyone with a slight cognitive function. Your comments here are so far off from even a stretch, it is clear they are raised just to incite anger. Even you are not that ignorant as to believe your examples are valid.
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Old 08-16-2010, 11:18 PM   #5
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I had to look Eric Rudolph up. He has no affiliation as a representative of the Catholic Church. He did not even say he was one.
This literally took me only 5 minutes to find :

"I was born a Catholic, and with forgiveness I hope to die one."

http://legacy.decaturdaily.com/decat.../rudolph.shtml
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Old 08-16-2010, 11:27 PM   #6
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Your comments here are so far off from even a stretch, it is clear they are raised just to incite anger. Even you are not that ignorant as to believe your examples are valid.
My analogies are precisely spot on. You're simply rationalizing them away.

My point is that "Catholics" are not responsible for the actions of "a Catholic", or even a bunch of Catholics. Anyway, whether other Catholics agree with or refute those actions, they are not responsible for the actions of those few.

I did not say Eric Rudolph was a "representative" of the Catholic Church, but he is quoted as saying that he is a " Roman Catholic at war over abortion", and he bombed abortion clinics based on his religious beliefs. (you need to do better research). Nobody said the 9/11 bombers were "representatives" of Islam either. In both of these cases, the individuals were crazed fundamentalists.

Westboro Baptist Church IS full of mean, hateful, people that do NOT represent "the Baptist Church", any more than Wahabi fundamentalists represent the entirety of Islam. Thank you for making my point.

Yet, you apparently don't get it. Some Muslims applaud 9/11, just as some Catholics applaud bombing birth control clinics or murdering abortion doctors, and some Baptists show up at the funerals of US soldiers and shout obscenities.

However, most Muslims have expressed outrage over the violation of their beliefs by the actions on 9/11. You're choosing not to pay attention to that which you don't wish to hear. You tell me, is this bigotry?
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Old 08-16-2010, 11:34 PM   #7
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Westboro Baptist Church is full of hateful mean people
And, ironically, they are just a few wobbly mis-steps away from those who might declare their "constitutional right to raise my children with values and respect for traditions that are far older than this nation"...

...and all the social inequities and injustices that may result.

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Old 08-16-2010, 11:50 PM   #8
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Catholics did not murder 3000 people saying that Jesus told them to do it.
Not a student of history, Karl?
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Old 08-17-2010, 08:16 PM   #9
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:37 PM   #10
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Not a student of history, Karl?
Yes, real history. You can take a clear statement out of context, and it will seem less clear. Christians have clearly killed many in the name of their religions, but that is not the point here. Christians did not fly the planes into those towers, and claim that Jesus made them do it. The same cannot be said for Muslims.

People can say that there has been an outcry from the Muslim community saying that these terrorists do not represent them, and it has been as loud and clear as the outcry from other religions against the actions of terrorists from their religion, but I have simply not heard it.

It can be said that I have subjective hearing, but insulting me, and telling lies, or even truths, does not change the actual facts.

And for the record, the most intolerant people I personally know are very liberal self proclaimed progressives, who have only hatred and venom to spew at anyone who has other views than theirs. Of course, they do not think of themselves as haters, or their views as intransigent, because they know they are the enlightened ones, and everyone else is just wrong. Therefore, you can hate wrong, and still be right.
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