Time to admit we could be doing something constructive

[Lily Kerns]

Originally Posted by KSagal

Wow, this has caught me by surprise.

This is the general discussion forum on segway chat. This is not the special needs, Mobility and Disabled forum. This is not a discussion thread on the DRAFT website.

I feel the clear and distinct discrimination against advocacy for segways for able bodied people from Marc and Lily.

If you don't like my ideas, or don't wish to hear them, don't ask for them here.

By the way, the segway dance has already been done, at the 2003 segwayfest, by able bodied seggers.

I tried to express that some of the magic of segways is that those with mobility challenges and those without them are almost indistinguishable while on board.

That dance team on a talk show, gliding smoothly, and evenly, would have even more impact, if afterwards, everyone gets off their segways, and what was clear and obvious as a smooth and even team then diversifies to a myriad of different physical abilities.

In a bit of a way, I am now sorry I offered a response on this thread. I fight every day for all people to be treated equally. To be dissed because I thought to respond that not only the disabled need segway advocacy, but all seggers do.

And by the way, there are many people who do not fit into any particular label, nor do they want to. Calling oneself disabled carries with it baggage that some do not want, and calling one able bodied may not be accurate either, for many people and many conditions that come and go, or flare up and calm down.

If a person chooses to dump their car, and commute to work via segway, it is no less an example of purposefully by individuals than the person who dumps their wheelchair. When a person uses their segway to go to the grocery store, that is also proof that they are more than just expensive toys.

I am very happy that the universal design of the segway is so complete that many in the disabled community are able to use them as well as anyone else. That does not however negate the several markets the inventor had in mind when he made the machine.

Boy, I am really sorry you took it this way, Karl. That was not the intention at all. I'd love a Segway even if I didn't need it for mobility part of the time. However there is no way I would even have thought of owning one, let alone skimp and save to do so if I didn't have a compelling reason to use one. I focus here because I use one from from that perspective. That is where I have encountered both the general discrimination you are talking about and gotten involved in the fight for equal access for those who need one.

That doesn't minimize the exhileration of using one. When I talk with people about using it as a mobility aid and what a remarkable machine it is, I always add two things: it has given me a freedom I thought I had lost, and besides, I'm having a whee of a time! Somehow that last item always seems to bring a grin....

I think Segs suffer from difficult imagery, and anything that improves that imagery has to be good for everyone who uses one--or potentially would use one. I'm making this list from the viewpoint of the ordinary middle of the country people I talk to...

The rich playboy's toy image, the young joy rider image (somewhat analogous to the bicycle spandex image), the Mall Cop image and, of course, the dork. All of these, around here, come from the media of various kinds because that is the only contact most people have had with Segways. These images especially affect those who are in positions of authority.

Then there is the somewhat more positive beat cop or mall security image and the tour visitor which they have seen somewhere when traveling. Around here, they have never seen anyone using them for commuting or shopping (except me.) Very few people I talk to have the faintest idea that they are used by the disabled. Most either think I am crazy, especially at my age <G> or the very idea of rolling around on two wheels (that isn't a bicycle or motorcycle) scares the daylights out of them.

There is a lot of educating to be done. Way back in High School I learned this definition of prejudice--being down on something you are not up on. I think the concept of ordinary people (whether disabled or not) using them productively and creatively is one approach to reducing that prejudice. I especially like your point that no one can tell for sure why you use one. How you use it is what they see.

I'm sorry I wasn't around to see that Segfest dance team. This is the first I've heard of it. Are there any videos floating around?

Lily

Karl,

Sorry you feel the way you do; maybe you can take a step back and re-read the posts. I would bet your not feeling discrimination. My bet is that you are upset that we are not running with your idea. So you lashed out at two people who have meant you no harm. I have explained very clearly why I chose the direction Lily suggested. If by posting in a general discussion group offended you again I apologize, that’s my bad. I did not know at the time what type of project I wanted to take on.

My original post was about me reaching out to the community as a whole for an idea for me to use some of my talents for something to benefit others. I have been unable to work for almost 3 years now and I’m going pretty stir crazy. Lily’s idea was a no-brainer for me and it started my gears turning right away. This was never intended to be any type of competition nor was it my intention to cause anyone bad feelings in my attempt to make myself feel more useful. I’m very sorry that was the outcome

[KSagal]

Originally Posted by mgalliani

Karl,

Sorry you feel the way you do; maybe you can take a step back and re-read the posts. I would bet your not feeling discrimination. My bet is that you are upset that we are not running with your idea. So you lashed out at two people who have meant you no harm. I have explained very clearly why I chose the direction Lily suggested. If by posting in a general discussion group offended you again I apologize, that’s my bad. I did not know at the time what type of project I wanted to take on.

My original post was about me reaching out to the community as a whole for an idea for me to use some of my talents for something to benefit others. I have been unable to work for almost 3 years now and I’m going pretty stir crazy. Lily’s idea was a no-brainer for me and it started my gears turning right away. This was never intended to be any type of competition nor was it my intention to cause anyone bad feelings in my attempt to make myself feel more useful. I’m very sorry that was the outcome

You would loose your bet. I know how I feel, and you are not in a position to be able to guess what motivates me, or when I may choose to lie on this forum (as you indicated above that you felt I did). I did not, and stated how I feel. It is not sour grapes.

Sometime we see a concept in our head, and do not always realize when we dismiss another person, or idea, simply because we have that vision and want to run with it. Discrimination does not always have to be mean spirited, nor malicious, sometime it is just through obliviousness, or uncaring how you are perceived from another perspective.

Just a little research on your part will reveal that I have posted similar thoughts of advocacy for segway use, for its own sake, not specifically for the sake of the disabled throughout the years.

One thought to consider. If you are fighting for access to go places, and be thought of as equals regardless of disability, then having access on a segway specifically because you have a disability, and therefore not having access without it, will cast the segway in the light of being something that MUST be tolerated by law, and tolerated it may be.

If the same argument was waged as one for access for segways because they enhance the environment, provide gee wiz propulsion from here to there and hurt no one, while lessening some current traffic and mobility and overcrowding problems, then the segway becomes a solution and a welcome addition to the textures in our every day, not a burden to be tolerated.

Next, as natural extension of access on a segway because you are disabled, and lack of access for the exact same thing if you are not, will lead to people questioning if you are indeed disabled or are you sufficiently disabled to qualify? Under what terms will we separate the disabled rider from the non-disabled one? How can you deny access to one person and not another legally, if they are exactly the same by any obvious criteria? The answer is that you cannot. If you go to a park cop, and say that I can come in on my segway, but John Doe over there on his segway cannot, yet you cannot ask me what my disability is (as the current law forbids him from doing) you are asking for a conundrum that he will not be able to solve. At that point, it is easier to make up a dumb rule (like a permit requirement) than to allow access.

There is more to my thought process than simply that one person who asked for ideas on projects did not like mine. By the way, do you know if I am disabled or not? If I am or not, by what standard?

That said, I wish you luck with your project. I will even help if I can. Please keep the forum posted on your activities and let us know how we can help.

Thanks Karl,

If anyone expresses a desire to work with you I won't hesitate to ask for your help.
I will also make sure to move any updates to the appropriate thread.

[KSagal]

Originally Posted by Lily Kerns

... However there is no way I would even have thought of owning one, let alone skimp and save to do so if I didn't have a compelling reason to use one. ..Lily

I said my piece, and do not have a problem. I did highlight the bit from your post however, not because I do not feel it is heartfelt, but it may be incomplete.

YOUR compelling reason deals with your disabilities, and that is what brought you to buy, but you may want to consider that those with disabilities are only a portion of the market for segways. There are more without disabilities that have segways than those with, by any standard or data I have ever seen.

There are a whole slew of compelling reasons that a person may choose to take the plunge and buy a segway, and having a disability is but one of many.

When you state that some may have a compelling reason, as you did, it infers that those who do not have a disability do not have a compelling reason. It may not be yours, or maybe the reason to buy that compelled another would not have compelled you, but that does not mean it was not a compelling reason.

Enough of that (probably too much )

As to the dance at segwayfest 2003, it was not a dance team, but actually a ballroom dance on segways. I have seen video of it posted on line, but not for several years.

If you mean by a segway dance team, some sort of precision routine like I have seen at parades on motorcycles, or maybe the segway equivalent of synchronized swimming, then I have done a little at parades with other segways, to the delight of the crowds, and have seen similar videos of others as well. An organized dance team for the enjoyment of those on the segways alone is new to me. Good luck, and have fun. The problem with that is that you have to have several people on several segways at the same time and place to do it. That has traditionally been a problem to get them together in groups in many places.