Segway Alternative Robin M1 - Page 12

KSagal · 06-26-2013, 09:58 AM

Much of the start up cost for the manufacturer of a new product is the R&D for that product itself. We all know that Segway spent tens of millions of dollars in the development, and presumably the patented technology they invented.

The whole point of a knock off is to avoid these costs. They see a product they want to copy, buy one and take it apart, then do the minimum needed to reproduce it, either in exact form, or similar form. They save themselves all that R&D money.

That is one of the reasons that knock-offs can be so much cheaper. Another is that they do not have the brand loyalty or responsibilities. If Segways were cheap and faulty, it would hurt the planet's perception of Segways. If Robins sell themselves as Segways or segway Alternatives, and they are cheap and faulty, people don't think that 'Real" Segways are good, and "Alternative" segways (robin) are bad, they just think 'those segway things' are a risk...

So, let someone else do the hard up front expensive work. Make a minimalist machine that may or may not deliver the goods, rake in the cash when you can, then scoot away when the problems become more work than the income.

We have seen this with the Q scooter, then Rad to go, then several other names for the same product.

Same here.

One of my earlier points was that I thought this was as much of a rip off of the Winglet as the segway. I do not know about the sales of the winglet, or even if they made it to production. I also do not know if the winglet had patent problems with the segway, and if that may be why they were not introduced to general sales. I offer this to say it may not be only Segway and it's intellectual property that are going to be a problem for Robin, but also Toyota.

The chinese have a horrible reputation for not respecting other people's intellectual property. It may not be deserved in all cases, but it is common enough to be a major factor in much of their dealings.

All this said, I am still curious to see if these things do what they are being touted to be able to do.

Tritium · 06-26-2013, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSagal

Much of the start up cost for the manufacturer of a new product is the R&D for that product itself. We all know that Segway spent tens of millions of dollars in the development, and presumably the patented technology they invented.

The whole point of a knock off is to avoid these costs. They see a product they want to copy, buy one and take it apart, then do the minimum needed to reproduce it, either in exact form, or similar form. They save themselves all that R&D money.

That is one of the reasons that knock-offs can be so much cheaper. Another is that they do not have the brand loyalty or responsibilities. If Segways were cheap and faulty, it would hurt the planet's perception of Segways. If Robins sell themselves as Segways or segway Alternatives, and they are cheap and faulty, people don't think that 'Real" Segways are good, and "Alternative" segways (robin) are bad, they just think 'those segway things' are a risk...

So, let someone else do the hard up front expensive work. Make a minimalist machine that may or may not deliver the goods, rake in the cash when you can, then scoot away when the problems become more work than the income.

We have seen this with the Q scooter, then Rad to go, then several other names for the same product.

Same here.

One of my earlier points was that I thought this was as much of a rip off of the Winglet as the segway. I do not know about the sales of the winglet, or even if they made it to production. I also do not know if the winglet had patent problems with the segway, and if that may be why they were not introduced to general sales. I offer this to say it may not be only Segway and it's intellectual property that are going to be a problem for Robin, but also Toyota.

The chinese have a horrible reputation for not respecting other people's intellectual property. It may not be deserved in all cases, but it is common enough to be a major factor in much of their dealings.

All this said, I am still curious to see if these things do what they are being touted to be able to do.

Since we all don't want to support a company who steals from other companies, I suggest looking at the YouTube videos of the M1.
It is seen doing lots that the i2 model can do too.

PeteInLongBeach · 06-26-2013, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tritium

Yeah apparently they even have their own version of a lean steer. Now that I know that it isn't stealing from Segway, I will buy one.
I need a PT to go traveling so this should work!

But, if they refused your payment to purchase, what does that mean? Where would you buy one?

That's really strange...

Tritium · 06-26-2013, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteInLongBeach

But, if they refused your payment to purchase, what does that mean? Where would you buy one?

That's really strange...

Ebay has them all day long

KSagal · 06-26-2013, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tritium

Ebay has them all day long

I went to ebay, and the robins in Hong Kong will ship anywhere for $100, yet the ones in Phoenix ship for $150. Interesting. Same machine price.

Also, some were for sale from Georgia, potentially the group we were speaking to on this forum.

All were the same price. Most all were using the word "Segway" in their title line or ad. None recognized it is a registered brand.

KSagal · 06-26-2013, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnG

China isn't known for helping foreigners protect their intellectual property within the country. Their patent database is full of patents that have been previously filed elsewhere in the world. It's called "prior art" and it invalidates most patents once a lawsuit (or grievance) is filed.

Clearly Segway's prior art pre-dates Robstep's patents (the one on self-balancing scooter was filed in 2010).

Perhaps aware that the self-balance patent would restrict their sales in other countries, Robstep in 2011 also filed a patent in China for a 3-wheeled scooter with a small "balance wheel" in-front.

Interesting point about the 3rd wheel in front. You should look into the Stand N Ride scooter. I wonder if it is the same company?

They also use the term 'Segway Alternative' in several of their advertisements.

Tritium · 06-26-2013, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSagal

I went to ebay, and the robins in Hong Kong will ship anywhere for $100, yet the ones in Phoenix ship for $150. Interesting. Same machine price.

Also, some were for sale from Georgia, potentially the group we were speaking to on this forum.

All were the same price. Most all were using the word "Segway" in their title line or ad. None recognized it is a registered brand.

I believe a Seg dealer in Fl sells them too!
Probably HK Post with no signature from Hong Kong.

The wholesale price is around $2000, so I think $3000 is not too bad.
The technology on the Robin has many features I would want on my Segs like built in lighting, real reverse, built in parking stand, etc.
It wouldn't hurt to buy one and test it out since there will always be someone who wants to buy it off of you.
I mean, if you look past all the small flaws and stuff, the Robin really is a good little transporter, and one of the things that's selling me on it is the portability.
I just went up to glide and brought my i180 and i2, and getting them in the SUV and secured was a huge pain, even more so since I have a bad back and my wrist has something awry with it.
The only use I'd really want the Robin for is like going out to get the mail, taking travelling or going 1 mile down the road to pick up a burger or burrito, it would never fully replace any of my PTs for the fact that they have 3x the range and are better for multi-terrain use.

goldwing_midland_tx · 06-26-2013, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tritium

The technology on the Robin has many features I would want on my Segs like real reverse

Just curious, what is real reverse, since one can lean back and the Segway goes backwards, or better yet, do a 180 and go forward.

KSagal · 06-26-2013, 09:53 PM

Tritium,

I was wondering what a 'real' reverse is also. I know I can really go in reverse on my segway as easily as anything else.

The only reason it does not fall over is because the wheels are smaller than the base, and there is so little clearance. That is hardly a feature. I have seen many people use a block of wood, or something similar as a parking stand. All you need to do is take a block of wood that 1 inch less than the distance from the bottom of the batteries to the road, and bolt it to the bottom of your segway. Be sure that the length of the wood is larger than the diameter of your tires. It will severely hamper the usefulness of your segway, but you will have a similar parking stand to the robin. (Paint it black so it looks factory original)

On the built in lighting, and the portability, I agree with you. Might not be as much fun as poking fun at you as I did above, but the truth is, I think these are real enough problems that could be addressed. I have lighting on my machine, and it is very good, but it needs to be charged and managed separately, so I would prefer to use a tiny bit of the mega batteries that we already have on board. My digital lights use very little power, relatively, but still have small batteries that need to be replaced or recharged. I would rather snag a few watts from the base batteries.

Portability is another problem. I like the segway size, for the most part. But over a hundred pounds is a problem.

I have seen some exoskeleton frames that significantly enhance the strength of the wearer. I guess I'll have to invest in one of those, to ease my lifting the segway into my car...

Tritium · 06-26-2013, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldwing_midland_tx

Just curious, what is real reverse, since one can lean back and the Segway goes backwards, or better yet, do a 180 and go forward.

Reverse that won't kick you off.
Example: If the Segway PT is going at almost any rate of speed in reverse, it will start shaking, if continued warning from the PT is ignored, it will safety shutoff.

06-26-2013, 09:58 AM	#111
KSagal Glides a lot, talks more... Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Pelham, NH, USA. Posts: 10,356	Much of the start up cost for the manufacturer of a new product is the R&D for that product itself. We all know that Segway spent tens of millions of dollars in the development, and presumably the patented technology they invented. The whole point of a knock off is to avoid these costs. They see a product they want to copy, buy one and take it apart, then do the minimum needed to reproduce it, either in exact form, or similar form. They save themselves all that R&D money. That is one of the reasons that knock-offs can be so much cheaper. Another is that they do not have the brand loyalty or responsibilities. If Segways were cheap and faulty, it would hurt the planet's perception of Segways. If Robins sell themselves as Segways or segway Alternatives, and they are cheap and faulty, people don't think that 'Real" Segways are good, and "Alternative" segways (robin) are bad, they just think 'those segway things' are a risk... So, let someone else do the hard up front expensive work. Make a minimalist machine that may or may not deliver the goods, rake in the cash when you can, then scoot away when the problems become more work than the income. We have seen this with the Q scooter, then Rad to go, then several other names for the same product. Same here. One of my earlier points was that I thought this was as much of a rip off of the Winglet as the segway. I do not know about the sales of the winglet, or even if they made it to production. I also do not know if the winglet had patent problems with the segway, and if that may be why they were not introduced to general sales. I offer this to say it may not be only Segway and it's intellectual property that are going to be a problem for Robin, but also Toyota. The chinese have a horrible reputation for not respecting other people's intellectual property. It may not be deserved in all cases, but it is common enough to be a major factor in much of their dealings. All this said, I am still curious to see if these things do what they are being touted to be able to do. __________________ Karl Ian Sagal To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin) Bene factum melior bene dictum Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.

06-26-2013, 09:53 PM	#119
KSagal Glides a lot, talks more... Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Pelham, NH, USA. Posts: 10,356	Tritium, I was wondering what a 'real' reverse is also. I know I can really go in reverse on my segway as easily as anything else. The only reason it does not fall over is because the wheels are smaller than the base, and there is so little clearance. That is hardly a feature. I have seen many people use a block of wood, or something similar as a parking stand. All you need to do is take a block of wood that 1 inch less than the distance from the bottom of the batteries to the road, and bolt it to the bottom of your segway. Be sure that the length of the wood is larger than the diameter of your tires. It will severely hamper the usefulness of your segway, but you will have a similar parking stand to the robin. (Paint it black so it looks factory original) On the built in lighting, and the portability, I agree with you. Might not be as much fun as poking fun at you as I did above, but the truth is, I think these are real enough problems that could be addressed. I have lighting on my machine, and it is very good, but it needs to be charged and managed separately, so I would prefer to use a tiny bit of the mega batteries that we already have on board. My digital lights use very little power, relatively, but still have small batteries that need to be replaced or recharged. I would rather snag a few watts from the base batteries. Portability is another problem. I like the segway size, for the most part. But over a hundred pounds is a problem. I have seen some exoskeleton frames that significantly enhance the strength of the wearer. I guess I'll have to invest in one of those, to ease my lifting the segway into my car... __________________ Karl Ian Sagal To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin) Bene factum melior bene dictum Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.

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