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Old 11-28-2009, 07:12 AM   #21
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I believe these are approximately half the cost of a new i2. Assuming they were available to purchase in our regions (and were legal), would you sacrifice the redundancy, looks and maybe some other features, for the reduced cost? I'm assuming that these devices do not have redundancy. But, to be honest, I'm not sure I have ever needed to utilise any of my PT's redundant features.

I would guess if they were both available from the same store in the UK or US, these vastly cheaper units would find their own market. Would they outsell the more expensive i2?
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Old 11-28-2009, 01:15 PM   #22
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I believe these are approximately half the cost of a new i2. Assuming they were available to purchase in our regions (and were legal), would you sacrifice the redundancy, looks and maybe some other features, for the reduced cost? I'm assuming that these devices do not have redundancy. But, to be honest, I'm not sure I have ever needed to utilise any of my PT's redundant features.

I would guess if they were both available from the same store in the UK or US, these vastly cheaper units would find their own market. Would they outsell the more expensive i2?
How would you know if you used the redundant safety features of your segway? If it worked, then the failure of the first system would have seamlessly been supplanted by the back up feature, and you would continue to glide along, never the wiser...

If that back-up feature did not work, then you would know by the face plant...

I suspect that like all systems, there are capacities for momentary gaps or failures, that seeming self correct, or go back on line after a second or two, or even a reboot... Not all failures in complicated systems, and I would wager that the tiny minority of them, result in a mechanical repair of some sort...

Furthermore, how many high profile accidents or failures will it take to change the already tenuous legislative environment for the negative? As I see it, asking a non-familiar person to believe that a segway is safe is asking for a leap of faith. It is saying that I know you cannot see how it works, and you do not have any previous track record, nor any other device that can show you it works the same way, but you can believe us that it will not fall over...

Now, you introduce a machine that may or may not have a tendency to act as they think it should, instead as we say it will...

We all know that the one 'OOPs!' can erase 10 'attaboys', but this would be even worse... This would be one picture that would be broadcast constantly on you tube, go viral, with a million naysayers all shouting "I told you they could not be safe!"

This is very different than a video of someone doing something stupid, and getting his just results... Those videos do exist, but even skeptics can understand that if you do that which the manufacturer specifically says not to do, you may have a problem... Even if the problem is rare...

But, as my first point goes, how do we know that a machine without the safety standards we are used to, will not fail in normal operation, and therefore be available to be filmed failing, when not being used improperly?

The unique thing about safety systems, is that you cannot see them until they fail. The lack of having them will impact you in ways you may not have foreseen...

As to your point about price, you are correct. Many will make the same assumptions as you, and buy the cheaper. And if that happens, I hope they work, or we will all suffer the consequences...

Think of it, officials cannot differentiate between our lithium batteries and other ones. (and there is science and labeling to help) Why would they be able to tell the difference between a safe segway and a knockoff unsafe one?

The concept of knock-off copy is not a new one, and China is not the first place to do it... And sometimes it actually improves the field, by driving the top to innovate, and improve to stay ahead of the copies... But if the field is too small and tenuous to start, I have to wonder... I am old enough to remember the Japanese cars of several decades ago, which were clearly copies of other peoples car designs... But they perfected their craft, and eventually, their cars became better than the ones they copied... I wish this is the future that I see for the Chinese copies of the segway, but I cannot get my imagination to see that... I see a grab for some bucks, and then a fade away... I hope I am wrong...
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Old 11-28-2009, 04:32 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
How would you know if you used the redundant safety features of your segway? If it worked, then the failure of the first system would have seamlessly been supplanted by the back up feature, and you would continue to glide along, never the wiser...

If that back-up feature did not work, then you would know by the face plant...
Actually, in every case I can think of, you'd know by getting a safety shutdown.

Battery, motor winding, controller board, rate gyro, tilt sensor...
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Obviously, we can't have infinite voltage, or the universe would tear itself to shreds, and we wouldn't be discussing Segways.
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Old 11-28-2009, 05:04 PM   #24
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Actually, in every case I can think of, you'd know by getting a safety shutdown.

Battery, motor winding, controller board, rate gyro, tilt sensor...
Exactly! It is my understanding that if any redundancy feature kicks in, it is because one component has failed. A Segway PT could not continue to run beyond this point because doing this means there is no longer any redundancy - therefore it brings the rider to a safe stop and turns off. So I still believe I have never had a failure of this sort. That's not to say I don't value the redundancy. I do indeed.

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As to your point about price, you are correct. Many will make the same assumptions as you, and buy the cheaper. And if that happens, I hope they work, or we will all suffer the consequences...
I stated my assumption clearly - my assumption was that the China copy does not have redundancy. I don't know that for a fact. I never stated or assumed that the cheaper version would outsell the i2 - I only asked the question. I think it could in my hypothetical situation - if the China copy was proven to be reliable. But as to which I would buy - I always like to buy the best whenever I can. I would buy the i2.

You also wrote a lot of other stuff... and I tend to agree with the rest.
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Old 11-28-2009, 05:45 PM   #25
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My understanding of redundancy is different than yours. I will defer to your definition within your post and say that I believe there is a possibility that the level of redundancy is stronger than you have defined.

Of course, it may just be that I am using that term for a different function or capacity... I have used the wrong term often, and my communicatory skills are not great...

I believe that it is possible that the primary circuitry can fail or stall for very brief periods of time, and under many circumstances, this would mean very little... We have all had computer processors get stuck in a loop, or have a need to over sample something several times before they work... Most often this does not require any interaction on our parts, as the computer or computer device starts to function again as we expected within moments, often before we could have started corrective action anyway...

Surely, there are many things going on at the same time (or nearly so) in any complex system, so to call every momentary delay in our expected observation of actions to be a fault is not appropriate, as many are reasonably within operating standards. A hard drive that does not find a file on the first pass is not necessarily broken, and if the second pass or search finds the data, we all go merrily along...

But if a momentary blip were to happen with our segways, while gliding, and hitting the far side of a pot hole after just having a momentary bit of air time, then we are in for a real problem... I believe there is a possibility that the redundant nature of their electronics reduces this capacity for a problem, as each segway is essentially two machines at the same time. Each control board can control each motor, because each motor has a dual set of windings.

Circuit wise, this means two processors, 4 motors, and an online duality that would not exist without redundancy...

With all that said, if one of those systems fails, and does not come on line within its specified operating allowances, you will get a shutdown, but if you did not have redundancy, and the one and only system shut down for 80% of the allowable time for it to be off line, or hung up for 80% of the time it takes before you be notified of a fault, or even if it hangs up for 100% of the time it takes to self diagnose a failure, but the system is sufficiently out to no longer be able to communicate the failure to you, I believe it is possible to experience a face plant...

All too often, when a something that works fast does not work, the results of that missing operation occur at the same time or even before the fault indicators can alarm...

I am happy when a person tells me that their redundant systems have never engaged, but I still remain skeptical if you would know this or not... I guess I will have to respectfully disagree.

I also will say, that my machines have never indicated to me, via code or action, that one of my primary systems has failed and I was depending on an alternate system.
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Old 11-28-2009, 11:27 PM   #26
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My understanding of redundancy is different than yours. I will defer to your definition within your post and say that I believe there is a possibility that the level of redundancy is stronger than you have defined.
Redundancy is not the only form of fault tolerance. It sounds like you're talking about a spectrum of things -- only a few of which would be considered redundancy.

Drive mirroring is redundancy. Retrying failed reads is not redundancy. Extra bits in each sector to enable ECC correction of up to (say) 16 consecutive bits of error, IS redundancy, but at a completely different level. I could go either way on remapping bad sectors.
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Obviously, we can't have infinite voltage, or the universe would tear itself to shreds, and we wouldn't be discussing Segways.
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:17 AM   #27
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Does any one have any info about the actual machines. All I have seen so far is speculation.
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Old 11-29-2009, 09:34 AM   #28
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I'm pretty sure that if one board "hangs", the other board will notice a fault in the inter-board communication, and begin the default safety procedure.

And, the odds for a specialized non-modifiable device to hang is considerably lower than that of a generic computation device, with it's runtime being modified all the time...

The hardware will always respond the same if it's functioning, and the software will always give the same results to the same data, therefore it's easier to keep things running stable than with interchangeable hardware, with modifiable software...

Therefore, it's safe to assume for one computer, that if the other computer isn't responding, something has gone terribly wrong...

And, remember, the redundancy in the Segway isn't to make sure you can keep gliding, but to make sure you don't fall... If one level of redundancy kicks in, that means you not longer have any other redundancy at that level, so next fault will be fatal, so the safest thing is to shutdown, which is what the Segway does.

You can't quite compare it's redundancy with that of a computer...

Bob: I'm pretty sure that is just how it runs, no "Turtle" mode there

jrwilcox: I have yet to see any specs as well...
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Old 12-01-2009, 12:18 PM   #29
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I do like the open spoke design. In my discussions with Segway, the closed spoke wheel design was a consumer safety requirement so we will never see factory open spoked wheels here in the USA.
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Old 12-01-2009, 01:29 PM   #30
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Me too, those wheels are stylish.
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