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Old 08-11-2011, 11:19 AM   #11
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If you poop in your nest you should have to live in it or clean it out yourself. We need to take care of people who can not care for themselves. I don't lose much sleep over the whiners weather they live in America or Britain. And we all have them.
Well said.
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Old 08-11-2011, 12:44 PM   #12
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I'm glad that the courts and justice system have literally been working overtime to accommodate the high numbers of arrests. And the Government have seemed to encourage the judges to not be leanient as some decent sentances have been handed out to those caught. And thanks to the CCTV images, more will be caught and treated appropriately. I hope they learn their lessons.

Someone stole a box of bottled water and got 6 months!

And they were not all impoverised either. School teachers, millionnaire's daughters, post man, hairdresser... there was an 11 year old child too!

It was great to see community spirit spring into action. Hundreds of people turned out with a broom to help tidy up.
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Old 08-12-2011, 02:40 PM   #13
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There's a fair bit of venting taking place in this thread about a wide range of stuff. In my book, having the paint damaged on one's car by vandals doesn't really fall into the same category as a crowd of thousands rioting in the street.

I agree that rioting doesn't solve anything directly, but it certainly has a way of focusing attention. Sometimes, attention is focused on morons, such as those who riot after their local sports team loses, or wins, an event. Food riots, on the other hand, focus attention on desperate people trying to find a way to survive. Race riots focus attention on racial injustice.

Let's use the example of the state of Wisconsin to see how serious (non-sports) riots could easily develop right here in the USA.

1. Deregulation of the financial industry causes everyday hard-working people to lose a big chunk of their savings.
2. Deregulation of the financial industry causes everyday hard-working people to lose their homes, as loans dry up and they can not find refinancing.
3. State government rescinds existing taxes and does not replace that source of income.
4. Then, having put themselves into the situation by their own actions, state government then claims "we are broke".
5. State government uses "we are broke" claim to slash contributions to school systems. School systems are forced to fire teachers and administrators by the thousands.
6. Claiming "we are broke", state government slashes "pass down" contributions to cities and counties, putting tens of thousands more (formerly) everyday hard-working Americans on the street.
7. Social radicals elements within the US government refuse to impose reasonable taxes on the wealthiest individuals and obscenely wealthy corporations, focusing instead on placing the load directly on middle and lower income people.

Now then, here's the formerly hard-working person (and neither race, nor gender, nor country of origin are of any importance, unless one is a bigot...), still looking for work after a year, and still not finding it. Rent is due. Cupboard is bare. Kids are hungry. Though he has worked hard all his life and is willing to continue to do so, he finds himself fully screwed.

Then, still claiming "we are broke!" radical elements within the US government cut the length of unemployment insurance payments, knowing full well that millions nationwide are out of their homes and out of work.

The out of work turn to their elected officials for help, but they get a recorded message saying "Your Congressman is busy right now, making sure he gets through the primary elections by kow-towing to Grover Norquist."

In other words: "Eat cake".

As difficult as it may be, try to picture yourself in that position. You go to the state (or federal) capital to try protest the lack of jobs, lack of food, etc. Now there are 50,000 people; all of them angry. The power keg is there. The match is lit.
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Old 08-12-2011, 08:09 PM   #14
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I can picture myself doing a lot of things.

Burning cars, smashing windows, and generally trashing my own neighborhood, are not among them.

Travelling to the capital with a pitchfork would be far more likely.
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Old 08-12-2011, 08:37 PM   #15
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There's a fair bit of venting taking place in this thread about a wide range of stuff. In my book, having the paint damaged on one's car by vandals doesn't really fall into the same category as a crowd of thousands rioting in the street.

I agree that rioting doesn't solve anything directly, but it certainly has a way of focusing attention. Sometimes, attention is focused on morons, such as those who riot after their local sports team loses, or wins, an event. Food riots, on the other hand, focus attention on desperate people trying to find a way to survive. Race riots focus attention on racial injustice.

Let's use the example of the state of Wisconsin to see how serious (non-sports) riots could easily develop right here in the USA.

1. Deregulation of the financial industry causes everyday hard-working people to lose a big chunk of their savings.
2. Deregulation of the financial industry causes everyday hard-working people to lose their homes, as loans dry up and they can not find refinancing.
3. State government rescinds existing taxes and does not replace that source of income.
4. Then, having put themselves into the situation by their own actions, state government then claims "we are broke".
5. State government uses "we are broke" claim to slash contributions to school systems. School systems are forced to fire teachers and administrators by the thousands.
6. Claiming "we are broke", state government slashes "pass down" contributions to cities and counties, putting tens of thousands more (formerly) everyday hard-working Americans on the street.
7. Social radicals elements within the US government refuse to impose reasonable taxes on the wealthiest individuals and obscenely wealthy corporations, focusing instead on placing the load directly on middle and lower income people.

Now then, here's the formerly hard-working person (and neither race, nor gender, nor country of origin are of any importance, unless one is a bigot...), still looking for work after a year, and still not finding it. Rent is due. Cupboard is bare. Kids are hungry. Though he has worked hard all his life and is willing to continue to do so, he finds himself fully screwed.

Then, still claiming "we are broke!" radical elements within the US government cut the length of unemployment insurance payments, knowing full well that millions nationwide are out of their homes and out of work.

The out of work turn to their elected officials for help, but they get a recorded message saying "Your Congressman is busy right now, making sure he gets through the primary elections by kow-towing to Grover Norquist."

In other words: "Eat cake".

As difficult as it may be, try to picture yourself in that position. You go to the state (or federal) capital to try protest the lack of jobs, lack of food, etc. Now there are 50,000 people; all of them angry. The power keg is there. The match is lit.
Nice rant. Some of it even had a fact or two in it, but most was supposition, and not particularly accurate, unless you figure that people are not responsible for themselves. Some of us do not think the answer is that someone else is responsible for our lives and well being.

Of the points you raised. Yes, damaging the paint on a car is hardly in the same league, but that point was made to example my inability to understand damage for the sake of damage. Looting came into the thread later.

1. deregulation did less damage than the government thru fanny and freddy requiring banks to make loans that could not be repaid. Banks would not do no doc loans, and risky loans, so federal regulations made them do it.

Then, those loans were packaged, never having been any good, but backed supposedly by the federal laws that mandated them, but did not fund them.

Deregulation came in when greedy people tried to make profits over profits on the bad assets that would not have existed without federal medling to begin with.

2. deregulation did not cause hard working people to lose their homes. Overly easy money cause them to be able to buy homes they could not afford in the first place, and then since they were dancing on the edge, and that edge fell apart, they lost. Some others got thrown out with the bath water, but most prudent loans did not fail from deregulation. (Some did from other factors)

3. State governments exist on a percentage of the GDP of that state. IF they overspend, that is because they were not responsible.

Across the board, we have a spending problem. Not a under taxed problem.

4. the states are broke, because they paid for constituencies, instead of being good stewards of the public funds. They paid crazy wages and benifits to public unions, far above the fair market values, and hired every brother in law to every minor politician, for very lucrative positions on our dime. Sometimes they also hire a real worker or two, but they get lost in the shuffle.

5. THe states are broke, and the school systems are failing under their own bloated weight. They do not educate the children in those systems but cost more and more each year. We rank in the 30s behind other nations that spend far less per student in science and math.

While lots of liberals think otherwise, the answer to all problems is not to throw money at it. The answer to most is to solve the problem. Solving the problem requires hard work, not more money if that last increase did not fix it, why would the next one?

6. We are broke, because we as a government spend money foolishly, and now must be smarter. The governments still collect a higher percentage of the GDP than at most any other time in our history, but we spend it even faster. Again, this is not a revenue problem, but an over spending one.

Spending less, and having less lay abouts is not the problem, it is the solution.

Some time, the politically entrenched get to keep their political jobs, and the workers they accidentally hired get fired instead. Then those who are less, who did not work when there were more of them, say that now there are less so the job they did not do in the past will not get done even worse now.

7. The lower 50% wage earners in the country pay no income taxes.

Corporations now, like GE, have lots of money, and that is why The PResident has GE's CEO on his advisory board. THat kind of political connection is valuable.

Also, since the tax and other regulations are so messed up at a federal level, and new taxes and surcharges are constantly being threatened, many corporations are afraid to hire new employees. THe behind the scene cost is becoming too much to bear. Easier to hire overseas.

There is too much more and I do not have time.

The riots in England were about spoiled young people looting and expecting to get away with it, because that society has been too permissive to them. The older brittans are not doing it because they have a different value system.
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Old 08-12-2011, 08:46 PM   #16
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Lots of good points that I agree with, but who are you replying to. If it is some liberal, it's like talking to a stump.
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Old 08-12-2011, 09:37 PM   #17
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Deregulation came in when greedy people tried to make profits over profits on the bad assets that would not have existed without federal medling to begin with.
Restated: Deregulation enabled banks and financial institutions to make huge profits by peddling bad assets.

So we agree on this. Maybe there was "federal medling (sic)", but it would have been brought up short of imminent worldwide financial collapse if the banking system hadn't been deregulated by people preaching "Free enterprise! Let the market dictate!". It dictated all right. It dictated hundreds of billions of dollars out of the pockets of hardworking Americans. Deregulation allowed it to happen.

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Overly easy money cause them to be able to buy homes they could not afford in the first place, and then since they were dancing on the edge, and that edge fell apart, they lost.
This is a massive over-generalization. Millions who had loans that expired during the melt-down were forced to forfeit their homes, because they could not get new loans. Two reasons: The banks weren't loaning to ANYONE, and the collapse of the housing market (as part of the melt-down) caused the value of their homes to drop.

How, exactly is this the fault of those individuals? That they failed to anticipate the largest financial collapse since the Great Depresssion?

This seems to be one difference between today's "conservatives" and progressives. Progressives believe that bad stuff can happen to good people, and that a civilized society should care about these things and provide some level of assistance to people who need it. Too many of what pass for conservatives today seem to have the "I've got mine, so screw you" attitude.

The point of my original post is that when a person is backed into a corner, desperation may cause them to do something that they otherwise might not. Society can either try to help such people, or, if the problem gets big enough, bring out the tanks.
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Old 08-13-2011, 12:37 AM   #18
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...
This is a massive over-generalization. Millions who had loans that expired during the melt-down were forced to forfeit their homes, because they could not get new loans. Two reasons: The banks weren't loaning to ANYONE, and the collapse of the housing market (as part of the melt-down) caused the value of their homes to drop.
...
Any reasonable mortgage that you can afford expires when you pay it off. If you get a short term loan that you cannot afford, or an interest only loan because you cannot afford the payments on a standard 20 or 30 year loan, that is buying what you cannot afford. A generation ago, the bank would not give you that much money. Barny Frank and Chris Dodd helped to change all that.

People without money should not be denied houses because they had no money, according to them. So they got houses that they could not afford. Then, as a surprise to many liberals, they could not afford them.

I would love to hear of people who paid 10 or 20% down on a house that they could afford (as a debt to income ratio as used by banks and mortgage companies for many many years) that expired and caused them to forfeit their homes. I do not believe they exist as you said, in the millions.

Those who did not invest their own equity in their homes when they bought, and were buying short term loans because they planned to flip their houses that they could not afford are more likely the ones who wound up in the situation you described.

I have no personal knowledge of a mortgage that expires before the house is paid off. What expires is the interest rate on some variable loans. I have a 2nd mortgage, (an equity line) that is on a 10 year term, but that is not a device to buy a home, but rather, a device to take out equity on one you already own. (or the equity on the part you own)

Those who chose to move, either from choice or necessity, did indeed loose out, but that is the risk that everyone takes when they borrow money to buy something. That is the way that life works.

If so many people did not flip houses, and consider the increasing value of their home as a source of income (in re-mortgaging over and over for higher amounts) then their situation would not be as dire.

Any way you cut it, I believe that we can take a great deal of control over our lives by the choices we make, and you continue to say that you can do the right thing and still not be in control. It is that simple. I believe we can master our own destiny, at least most of it, and you continue to say that we cannot.

I do not agree with your position, but I am happy to leave you to it. Just please do not try to tell me that I am not allowed to have mine.
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Old 08-13-2011, 02:56 AM   #19
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As difficult as it may be, try to picture yourself in that position. You go to the state (or federal) capital to try protest the lack of jobs, lack of food, etc. Now there are 50,000 people; all of them angry. The power keg is there. The match is lit.
I guess I don't know how I would react if pushed to breaking point. I think if it became a matter of survival for me or my family, then I would feel compelled to do things I would not normally consider justifyable. However, herein lies my problem with these recent riots. Many of those involved were not there because they are on the poverty line. They were not rioting because they felt strongly about the shooting of some gangster they didn't know. They saw it happen on TV, they felt it was a great excuse to do something/try something that they felt would have little or zero consequences for them. The fact that lots of it was "organised" using Twitter, Facebook and Blackberry Messenger, makes me think these people are not exactly short of money to feed themselves and their family. If that was me, I would sell my phone/laptop etc. before I reached breaking point.

And whilst there was some rioting in local communities (i.e. trashing their own neighbourhood as Karl suggested), most of the sensationalised rioting took place in the centre of major towns.

There was one photo of people looting Pound Land (or Pound World or something similar - shops where everything costs £1) and a rather "large" lady was coming out with her jacket stuffed full of crisps/sweets.

People died. Millions of £ worth of damage was caused, many millions more in terms of lost revenue for large business AND small business - many are now out of business. Compensation from the government and insurance companies etc. I'm feeling less embarassed now and more angry for the actions of the stupid or the selfish or the greedy or the violent thugs involved (or in many cases, I guess, a combination of all of those types).
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Old 08-13-2011, 09:23 AM   #20
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I agree with you, GBrandwood. In no way am I arguing that riots are a good thing. Nor am I arguing that the UK riots, specifically, are justified or that the people involved in them were anything but thugs. My point was that desperate people will do desperate things, and some times that results in a riot.

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I believe we can master our own destiny, at least most of it, and you continue to say that we cannot. KSagal
Again, you restate my position...incorrectly. I did not say one could not control most of our "destiny". I agree with that, but there is a part that even you agree is outside of control, but which you choose to minimize because it is not consistent with your "I am the master of all I survey" perspective. This perspective survives because you have not been a victim of events outside your control.

I can only say that we differ in thinking. I know for a fact that bad things can happen to good people, no matter how smart they think they are or how good they think their planning is. Your good fortune and the associated, "I'm pretty darned good at controlling my environment, and lesser folks deserve what they get" may continue though your life. However, if "destiny" serves you a curve ball, you can only hope that there are compassionate people around to help scrape you off the ground, as there certainly won't be any people with the "he failed to master his own destiny" helping when you need it most.
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