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Old 11-20-2011, 10:59 PM   #41
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Bob,

And there's the rub. You told the world that I miscatagorized the political positions, which I did not. At least I do not see how I did.

What I got from your post however, is that you saw yourself and myself in the categories that I described. I did not.

Please read it again. I chose my words carefully.

I chose to say that a "small government free market conservative" may feel a certain way. I did not say that I feel this way, or that you or Joe or John, or Frank or Mary feel this way. I made up a straw man with that political position, to make a point.

I chose to say that a " large government share the wealth type" may feel a certain way. I did not say that I feel this way, or that you or Joe or John, or Frank or Mary feel this way. I made up a straw man with that political position, to make a point.

For all the traps you said we fall into, you jumped in yourself. I was not talking about any people in particular, just two individual straw men that I gave different political positions to.

Since we know absolutely nothing about these fictional characters other than a one line description, it is not possible to say they were mischaracterized. That is, unless we decide to fill in the blanks we perceive ourselves and then blame the original author.

I know I see myself in posts from some, and I see myself misidentified, as you claim. I do this because of the context, and I suppose I could be as wrong as you are here when I do it. But that does not justify doing it again.

So, I was making a generic point about how differing positions on politics can result in worthy postings on segways position in a particular situation, once anyone decides to see their reflection in the post, all kinds of reactions can occur. Frequently, those reactions are not really to the post as intended or even as written by the OP, but instead those reactions are to the perceived meaning behind. When the perception is accurate, you may be out of line but accurate, but when the perception is inaccurate, a flame war ensues.
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Old 11-20-2011, 11:41 PM   #42
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What was this thread about again? I ferget.
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Old 11-20-2011, 11:43 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
Bob,

And there's the rub. You told the world that I miscatagorized the political positions, which I did not. At least I do not see how I did.

What I got from your post however, is that you saw yourself and myself in the categories that I described. I did not.

Please read it again. I chose my words carefully.

I chose to say that a "small government free market conservative" may feel a certain way. I did not say that I feel this way, or that you or Joe or John, or Frank or Mary feel this way. I made up a straw man with that political position, to make a point.

I chose to say that a " large government share the wealth type" may feel a certain way. I did not say that I feel this way, or that you or Joe or John, or Frank or Mary feel this way. I made up a straw man with that political position, to make a point.

For all the traps you said we fall into, you jumped in yourself. I was not talking about any people in particular, just two individual straw men that I gave different political positions to.

Since we know absolutely nothing about these fictional characters other than a one line description, it is not possible to say they were mischaracterized. That is, unless we decide to fill in the blanks we perceive ourselves and then blame the original author.

I know I see myself in posts from some, and I see myself misidentified, as you claim. I do this because of the context, and I suppose I could be as wrong as you are here when I do it. But that does not justify doing it again.

So, I was making a generic point about how differing positions on politics can result in worthy postings on segways position in a particular situation, once anyone decides to see their reflection in the post, all kinds of reactions can occur. Frequently, those reactions are not really to the post as intended or even as written by the OP, but instead those reactions are to the perceived meaning behind. When the perception is accurate, you may be out of line but accurate, but when the perception is inaccurate, a flame war ensues.
No, I didn't say that, either.

I said the categories were broken, and divisive, and based on language that is used to rhetorically divide us vs them.

I don't see myself even remotely in either category, and I doubt you fit so neatly into either one either. I do suspect you would view yourself as being more in one than the other, but I'd recommend against such a self-categorization!

My point is that using such categories such as the ones you offer CREATES the trap. Then, as you justly point out, people are apt to react to the categories presented. Even presenting such categories is a trap for oneself. It sets you up to be attacked, based on the categories.

It really helps to think of things as multiple issues, and people's positions being spread differently across those issues -- and often occupying a range on those issues, rather than a specific point.

You paired two things on each side, which is an automatic fail, in terms of constructing workable categories for discussion.
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Old 11-21-2011, 12:43 AM   #44
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Bob,

Your post reminds me of a comment I heard in the past.

Apparently, the whole world is divided into two groups.

1. Those who divide the world into groups.

2. Those who don't.

By the way, the second group has no members.

I appreciate your position, but I do not have to agree with it in particular, nor in concept. I believe the world is full of groups of people who band together for their common good, based on compatible views on a single political perspective.

These groups are full of people with varying degrees of import for this perspective, and all involved have diverse perspectives on other topics.

It is my position that there is nothing wrong with simple titles and categories, when you want to give a simple and one dimensional description of themselves. I might say I am bald for instance. I am, and I generally display no hair on my head, other than my mustache, small beard, and eyebrows.

Any who know me might admit that I shave the sides and back of my head, and that even so, I do have a few loner hairs that defy my chosen coif, so I am not really bald.

There you have it. A self articulated category, not absolute, but close enough to let those who want, a glimpse at my view of myself.
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Old 11-21-2011, 12:50 AM   #45
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Well, you're welcome to describe yourself however you want.

When you start assigning other people to categories, using language such as you chose, expect conflict.

Pretty much nobody would accept being placed in a "big government" category -- even if both you and I would regard them as advocating policies with those results.

And I would put a lot of Tea Party people's positions in the "big government" category -- to their consternation, I am sure.

My point isn't so much about how one thinks of things, as the impact of using such categorization and terminology in online discussions.
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Old 11-21-2011, 01:30 AM   #46
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Uhm, did I miss something?

This thread was started about moderation, we're discussing here how to improve the moderation here.

We already have enough examples of undesired thread pollution. So please stay on topic.
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Old 11-21-2011, 01:49 AM   #47
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I think it very much is on topic. I'm sorry if we lost you.

Moderation and behavior go hand-in-hand, and the issue at hand is the impact of politics on behavior and moderation.

aricisom brought up the issue of segregating political speach. Jim stated he is anti-politics. Karl and I have been pointing out in different ways that it is quite integral to the discussions, and between us, we've been talking around what are appropriate boundaries and guidelines for such discussions.

VERY much about moderation.
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Old 11-21-2011, 02:05 AM   #48
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To summarize -- I think moderators should allow political speech, but watch specifically for the sort of labeling behavior I've been describing -- both as a sign that the discussion is about to go bad, and to try to divert people from going down that path.

Does that clear it up?

Oh, and the political speech should actually relate to the topic at hand. As it does here.
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Old 11-21-2011, 02:26 AM   #49
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Thanks for the clarification.

Now I know again why I stay out of any politics, never had any affinity with it
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Old 11-21-2011, 02:59 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob.Kerns View Post
...the political speech should actually relate to the topic at hand. As it does here.
Maybe I'm the only one who saw those long-winded comments between you and Karl as political bickering. It started here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
[Excess verbiage to get to the following point]

I am a big picture thinker, and do not do well to discuss a topic without the ability to flow with the eddies and currents along the surface of other topics. For my thought process, much of the discussion of the parts only makes sense when also discussing the bigger mechanism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob.Kerns View Post
... your political categories are all messed up...

[Blah, blah bla, only to finally get to this:]

While it's not required that a Segway forum support political speech, I do think it is in our interest to do so when there's a connection to Segways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
...I do not see how I did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob.Kerns View Post
I said the categories were broken, and divisive... [and more blah, blah, bla]
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
...I do not have to agree with it... [again with the blah, blah, bla]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob.Kerns View Post
...expect conflict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob.Kerns View Post
VERY much about moderation.
No, what you two have been doing is about you two. Nothing at all about moderators moderating. It is, however, exactly why there are complaints about closing or censoring topics. Some members take an interesting discussion about one thing and turn it into an argument about something else. That's the way it seems to me, anyway. Who cares how Karl characterizes anything? Why does that have to take up so much space here when you two could very easily take that battle to PMs?

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Does that clear it up?
How can anything be clear when you have to dig through so much mud to get to it?

Jim
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