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Old 01-27-2008, 10:45 AM   #61
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Clinton has experience. As a senator for 8 years, and a member of the armed services committee, and having to work with Republicans during a time when the Republicans were playing major crony politics and pulling power plays, she managed to hold her own. Her value from being the wife of a sitting president is that she met many of the leaders/politicians from the other countries and has developed relationships with them. How much Bill discussed with her during his presidency, I do not know. Nor do I care. Many of the other candidates have considerably LESS experience. Both in terms of knowledge of the people involved, internationally, and in terms of the work of congress....
Ok, she has experience but it is very very limited experience not the image of long life experience she is touting. Being the wife of a President does not count in any way shape or form. Sure, she has about 6.5 years of Congressional experience but all in all she is more of a political novice than Romney, McCain, and Giuliani.

As for her "relationships" with foreign leaders / politicians, I can tell you that most I know of have a negative impression of her. Having served as an advance agent for three years working VIP visits, including two of hers, I know too well the damage and destruction she leaves behind. Even Bill was much less work!

So, saying she has limited experience isn't a joke, it is a reality, and one we need to acknowledge.

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Old 01-27-2008, 11:20 AM   #62
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Clinton has experience. As a senator for 8 years, and a member of the armed services committee, and having to work with Republicans during a time when the Republicans were playing major crony politics and pulling power plays, she managed to hold her own. Her value from being the wife of a sitting president is that she met many of the leaders/politicians from the other countries and has developed relationships with them. How much Bill discussed with her during his presidency, I do not know. Nor do I care. Many of the other candidates have considerably LESS experience. Both in terms of knowledge of the people involved, internationally, and in terms of the work of congress.

That is in her favor and IS experience, nonetheless. Also, she has shown that she is willing to listen to the electorate and will change her position based on what the majority of the electorate wants (after all, isn't that why we elect them, so they'll represent OUR views?)

All that said, I haven't decided whom I'm voting for - I just wanted to respond to the Republican cant that is being sent over the airwaves discounting her experience, when she does have good, viable, experience.

Pam

I, for one, did not say she had no experience. I did say the entire group of top three Democrats had less time in office than the Republicans, that is all.

As far as Clintion herself, she does not claim 8 years of experience, but 35 plus years of experience in public service. Any way you cut that up, it means she is claiming credit while she was the wife of an elected official, not as one. That is one of the things that rubs people the wrong way...

There is another major difference in that experience is not the same as decision making. All the top three Dems are low time Senators, and that is a group that works on consensus. In other words, nothing gets done without compromise. And nothing gets done because of it's own merits, but rather by appealing to the majority.

Some things are just hard to do. While the world is full of people who take the hard road, or do the difficult thing, because the end result is worth the extra toil and stress, these people are far more the exception than the rule...

SO, an executive can make a decision, even if it is not the popular path, or the most easy one. A Senator cannot. SInce the very definition of leadership requires one to rise above the crowd, the ability to be a good member of the crowd is not one of the prerequisites.
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Old 01-27-2008, 03:17 PM   #63
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I guess this is where Karl and I really differ.

I don't believe in the powerful unitary executive, and consider it the ultimate "daddy" state, where someone makes all our decisions based on what THEY think is good for us or what is good for their pockets.

Unfortunately, I consider this a blank check for abuse, and if you get a president who is just plain stupid (not casting aspersions on anyone in particular), then you've got a nightmare. I'm definitely in favor of - if not consensus, at least someone who is willing to work within the confines of the concept of the 3 branches of government.

RE: Hilary's 35 years. Well, I guess it could be counted as "experience" - I don't know the details of how involved she was in either the governorship or the Bill's presidency - and I'm not sure any of the rest of us do, either, since none of us were there.

That said, as I said before, I've not made a decision on whom to vote for. They all, AFAICS, have negatives, as well as positives.

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Old 01-27-2008, 06:33 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by pam View Post
I guess this is where Karl and I really differ.

I don't believe in the powerful unitary executive, and consider it the ultimate "daddy" state, where someone makes all our decisions based on what THEY think is good for us or what is good for their pockets.

Unfortunately, I consider this a blank check for abuse, and if you get a president who is just plain stupid (not casting aspersions on anyone in particular), then you've got a nightmare. I'm definitely in favor of - if not consensus, at least someone who is willing to work within the confines of the concept of the 3 branches of government.

RE: Hilary's 35 years. Well, I guess it could be counted as "experience" - I don't know the details of how involved she was in either the governorship or the Bill's presidency - and I'm not sure any of the rest of us do, either, since none of us were there.

That said, as I said before, I've not made a decision on whom to vote for. They all, AFAICS, have negatives, as well as positives.

Pam

I appreciate the implication that I believe the part of your post that I highlighted, but I do not.

I also believe in the 3 branches of government, and the Senate is in the Legislative branch. The President is in the Executive branch. Being a good Senator has very little to do with being a good President. (Check history, very few have made the transition, and I believe only one in our lifetimes...)

By the way, Goverors are also in the Executive branch. Govornor's wives are not.
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Old 01-27-2008, 06:54 PM   #65
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Well, I don't recall stating that you believed this, however, if you're going on implications, you might have implied it with your comment

" SO, an executive can make a decision, even if it is not the popular path, or the most easy one."


However, that said, I do still think there is a primary difference in our political belief systems/choices. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that there is a difference. I think it's important to work with others and to actually represent the people's will. Idealist, I know.

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Old 01-27-2008, 07:30 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
I guess this is where Karl and I really differ.

I don't believe in the powerful unitary executive, and consider it the ultimate "daddy" state, where someone makes all our decisions based on what THEY think is good for us or what is good for their pockets.

Unfortunately, I consider this a blank check for abuse, and if you get a president who is just plain stupid (not casting aspersions on anyone in particular), then you've got a nightmare. I'm definitely in favor of - if not consensus, at least someone who is willing to work within the confines of the concept of the 3 branches of government.

RE: Hilary's 35 years. Well, I guess it could be counted as "experience" - I don't know the details of how involved she was in either the governorship or the Bill's presidency - and I'm not sure any of the rest of us do, either, since none of us were there.

That said, as I said before, I've not made a decision on whom to vote for. They all, AFAICS, have negatives, as well as positives.

Pam
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Well, I don't recall stating that you believed this,

I believe your statement in blue here is disingenuous. You can word smith all you like, but in your previous quote, you stated (I bolded it above) that we disagree, and that you do not believe the rest of the bolded statement.

That clearly implies that you do not feel that way, and I do.


however, if you're going on implications, you might have implied it with your comment

" SO, an executive can make a decision, even if it is not the popular path, or the most easy one."

This is not the same to me as you characterized it in your first post, but so be it. I believe a leader can do what is right, even if not the easy path, and that is what the constitution provides for. We do not have a government that is ruled by consensus, nor by committee, but by a chief executive.

The abuse of power you seem conserned about is dealt with constitutionally, but the balance of power in the three branches. THe government is designed to work, not to need to be manipulated by people who do not trust it.

Still, each has their own view and perspective. That is also guarenteed by the constitution to all citizens.


However, that said, I do still think there is a primary difference in our political belief systems/choices. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that there is a difference. I think it's important to work with others and to actually represent the people's will. Idealist, I know.

Pam

I agree that we do not agree on many issues, and surely politics fits on that long list. I believe that the president is a representative of the people, as he is elected.

While presidential elections may appear convoluted in some ways, it is done that way to protect the rights of people from smaller states and those with smaller populations from being overwhelmed by those in larger states and with larger populations...

That not witstanding, I do not see how an elected president, (or twice elected) is less a representative of the people than a senator who is elected or a governor who is elected.

And again, wives are not elected. Ask Rudy. He would know...
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Old 01-27-2008, 08:03 PM   #67
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I hear a lot about expierience. I seem to hear expierience makes a better president! I must say this is not true. Look at Bush, he had tons of expierience and he was quite possibly (and in some aspects measurably) the worst president we have ever seen!

In my opinion little expierience could be a good thing! The fact is that with more expierience you start to conform to the way things are. The more you work in a certain field the more you start to think you know how it goes. With the presidency things change and it is impossible to "know" how it goes.

Less expierience creates new ideas. When someone with less expierience comes into office things are different. They think of new ideas. Instead of saying it's always been this way so it will stay this way they say how about we try this. That is why little expierience is almost better!

With Bush we have been led into third world financial status. The U.S. is in such a deficit that our net worth is lower than any other country! Just look at the national debt! Before Bush we were on a surplus! We need new and fresh ideas in order to have a chance.

I have spoken in the past with executives of major corporations at business conferences! When a corporation's executive officers quit typically they will hire from the outside. This is because they bring new ideas and fresh starts to the company! Often times the best leaders will be those that lack expierience.

Some expierience is important but I do believe Obama has enough expieience. You wouldn't want a high school grad as Preident, however, someone who has served several years as a civil rights attourney and several more in the IL state senate (much like President Lincoln) and a couple in the National senate is enough!

I also think he has the personality to make an excellent diplomat! I think he has the compassion to move towards progressing issues that actually matter. I think Hillary has a problem with her mouth! I think this could end up hurting us as a major part of the presidency is foreign relations. The only benefit to Hillary in my opinion would be Bill back in the White House!

Either way I certainly think that Obama has enough expierience to be a great president! I think Hillary is a loose cannon and her mouth can get us in trouble. I do not think our country can afford any of the republicans up for grabs! It will be an interesting election!

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Old 01-27-2008, 08:19 PM   #68
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Obama has some issues. As I said. He's not got a "clean" background, unfortunately, and if you think that Clinton has been "mean" to him, you haven't heard what the Republicans will do.

There will be his (published in his own words, his own book) drug use in college. You can expect to see that in major ad campaigns.There will be his somewhat questionable deal in terms of his house, etc. It will all come up. He is a great speaker, very articulate. He did make a mistake, though, in telling everyone that Regan was a better president than Bill Clinton and Richard Nixon - lumping those two together. That's what got Clinton's back up, and caused him to go on attack. That's an example of the kinds of inexperience that might be problematic for Obama. I also think he (and others who are running) will be easier to "own" - unfortunately - .

Bush was "owned" by the neoconservatives. He had very little experience. I wouldn't call being governor of Texas much experience (being Texas born and raised). And he managed to run a couple of companies into the ground, although not before he made a nice sum of money from them.

I know you're enthusiastic about Obama, but there are some things to consider that may well not make him electable. There are things about Clinton that might not make her electable.

This is an interesting time.

Oh, and Karl, there are a great many people who question the legitimacy of both of Bush's elections (and I saw a lot of what happened in Florida, so based on what I saw in Florida I'd question that election - plus, it took the Supreme Court to get him into office) - and then Ohio in 2004.

So, although you may be a part of the 30% (generous) of the population who think he's been a great president (and I don't know that you do, but you have defended him frequently on the forums) and he has done the right thing, the hard thing when others don't agree with him, he's done too much to gut the constitution for me to be happy with his presidency. FWIW.

Now, since it's important to you to have the last word (which is what you've said to me in the past), I'm going to let you do that, because I'm not coming back to this forum.


Pam

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Old 01-27-2008, 08:35 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
Obama has some issues. As I said. He's not got a "clean" background, unfortunately, and if you think that Clinton has been "mean" to him, you haven't heard what the Republicans will do.

There will be his (published in his own words, his own book) drug use in college. You can expect to see that in major ad campaigns.There will be his somewhat questionable deal in terms of his house, etc. It will all come up. He is a great speaker, very articulate. He did make a mistake, though, in telling everyone that Regan was a better president than Bill Clinton or Richard Nixon - lumping those two together. That's what got Clinton's back up, and caused him to go on attack. That's an example of the kinds of inexperience that might be problematic for Obama. I also think he (and others who are running) will be easier to "own" - unfortunately.

Bush was "owned" by the neoconservatives. He had very little experience. I wouldn't call being governor of Texas much experience (being Texas born and raised). And he managed to run a couple of companies into the ground, although not before he made a nice sum of money from them.

I know you're enthusiastic about Obama, but there are some things to consider that may well not make him electable. There are things about Clinton that might not make her electable.

This is an interesting time.

Pam
I do agree Pam with some things you have said! He will take a hit because of his past! I do not agree with judging someone on their past as I am sure many of us here have smoked our share of weed in our teenage years! Obama has some things to work on as does everyone!

As you said being Governor of Texas is not too hard a job however Bush did manage to mess that up! The fact is that if Obama wins the nomination he will be attacked. He is not the type to sit there and take it though! That was Kerry's problem (among others).

Now if you ask honestly if Obama has a chance of getting the majority of America to vote for him I will say no. None of the democrats do in my opinion. I do believe that any of them have a chance of gettin elected. You see after Bush messed up this country I believe that the majority will not vote for the democrat yet against the republican!

That, in my opinion gives all three of them a chance! I also don't see anyone on the republican side that strikes me as a strong candidate for president! If the republicans had a real strong player I would be worried.

On to another thing! Obama said from the beginning that he refuses to take donations from lobbyists! He has held to that and has not accepted one donation from a lobbyist! I think these powerful lobbyists have bought America enough and highly support a stop to all such campaign donations!

Jeremy Ryan
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