We <dislike> Irresponsible Renters

PoloAk · 06-01-2003, 03:39 AM

Alright. So there are rental agencies offering Segways to the infrequent user. PT is having some problems with this in Seattle because of irresponsibility. Seems that those agencies may not be training the riders effectively, and, with the inundation of a bunch of new users in a single area, complaints are coming up. So. . .

What are your ideas on possible solutions?

Granted, some of us dislike rentals altogether, but stating that is completely UNHELPFUL. The rental agency is already there. Think constructively and post frequently!

Kelsey

stevew · 06-01-2003, 04:03 AM

When a rental business sets up shop how do they acquire say 10 HTs? Is it ten individuals via Amazon (with ten people attending training) or a commercial sale. If commercial, doesn't Seg LLC regulate how commercial buyers use the product, i.e. no rentals unless set up through LLC. It seems Segway could stem this tide assuming HTs are acquired through commercial sales channel. Any thoughts?

vpv · 06-01-2003, 04:22 AM

A rental center cannot be held responsible for irresponsible renters.. just like Avis Rental company cannot be held responsible for renting a car to an irresponsible driver.

Training is not the issue either.... The Segway will be available in the future without mandatory training.. (at least that's the response from a Segway trainer when posed with the question of the future of Segway)... As a renter previously indicated, everyone will have learning curve. Whether that learning curve translates into accidents/deaths is mute too...(people had to learn how to drive cars that kill)..

The real issue is how cities will have to accomodate this new technology because as Dean Kamen had alluded to several times, the HT is built for the cities.

Recent bans are misguided, for many reasons. These bans will be contested all the way to the supreme court and will be reversed.

Federal laws will be enacted that will accomodate these EPAMD's that will ensure the right of the rider and pedestrians.

pt · 06-01-2003, 04:33 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by vpv A rental center cannot be held responsible for irresponsible renters.

yes they can, watch what happens when the first accident hits with rentals. a jury (if and when this happens) will decide -if- someone acted in good faith.

do you think andrew got proper training? he didn't get to watch the video or get trained right.

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by vpv Training is not the issue either.... The Segway will be available in the future without mandatory training.. (at least that's the response from a Segway trainer when posed with the question of the future of Segway)... As a renter previously indicated, everyone will have learning curve. Whether that learning curve translates into accidents/deaths is mute too...(people had to learn how to drive cars that kill)..

that is not -real- it's a rumor, sorry. when that happens, it's a valid point.

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by vpv The real issue is how cities will have to accomodate this new technology because as Dean Kamen had alluded to several times, the HT is built for the cities.

they won't, if they've already banned the hts or heard many cities have banned them.

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by vpv Recent bans are misguided, for many reasons. These bans will be contested all the way to the supreme court and will be reversed.

okay, so you're saying we're going to need a supreme court battle? sorry folks, you'll need vpv to help out with that one. i don't have 4 years and that type of cash to work on that.

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by vpv Federal laws will be enacted that will accomodate these EPAMD's that will ensure the right of the rider and pedestrians.

how? who? you? segway? when? how long til that happens?

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

PoloAk · 06-01-2003, 04:33 AM

Well, vpv, i completely respect your right to an opinion, which you state very well. I still disagree. The issue is how to deal with problems now.

Kelsey

pt · 06-01-2003, 04:37 AM

i know of at least one place that "fudged" a bit to segway, told them it was for another type of biz, got a few people, got the hts...and are now renting.

segway can't stop people from buying hts, even with limits, you can get 10 people to buy 2 each.

cheers,
pt

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by stevew When a rental business sets up shop how do they acquire say 10 HTs? Is it ten individuals via Amazon (with ten people attending training) or a commercial sale. If commercial, doesn't Seg LLC regulate how commercial buyers use the product, i.e. no rentals unless set up through LLC. It seems Segway could stem this tide assuming HTs are acquired through commercial sales channel. Any thoughts?

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

vpv · 06-01-2003, 05:35 AM

You're right Kelsey.. there a NOW question..

Here's what I think should be done now:

LLC should allow more rental centers.... (just as they will be doing with Keolis, in France and is now doing with Nevrland.). They can provide guidelines on how to operate rental centers.

Cities should allow more rental centers to operate in their jurisdiction, either as part of the tourism/transportation hub (this will be a new revenue stream to them given the current budget & economic crisis of states and cities today).

Rental centers ought to do as Larry has previously suggested to do, work with cities, improve training, etc. However, since they cannot initially discriminate between responsible vs irresponsible renters, unless previous irresponsible actions are known to the rental centers prior to renting, they cannot be held liable. Yes this will be a future court decision.

Renters, however, cannot be faulted just because they've invested less than we do on these machines. I don't buy the idea that owners are better than renters. It's a selfish idea. Do you think renters are more apt to mow down pedestrians than owners? NOT! If training is an issue, let them rent some more (it's their money), they'll learn more as they rent more..

Renters are responsible for their own actions, just like owners are.

Blinky · 06-01-2003, 06:01 AM

Quote:

quote:A rental center cannot be held responsible for irresponsible renters.. just like Avis Rental company cannot be held responsible for renting a car to an irresponsible driver.

Training is not the issue either.... The Segway will be available in the future without mandatory training.. (at least that's the response from a Segway trainer when posed with the question of the future of Segway)... As a renter previously indicated, everyone will have learning curve. Whether that learning curve translates into accidents/deaths is mute too...(people had to learn how to drive cars that kill)..

How can you say 'training' is not an issue. We don't exactly know what Segway LLC will be doing in the future with this issue. Even if they were to make Segway available for sale in the future without mandatory training, there was a 'training video' being discussed as its replacement. A video that someone can bring home and practice with their Segway. When will someone renting a Segway have time to watch a training video? This has nothing to do with rentals.

The Segway Rental place will have to train any potential renters. They will be responsible for making sure that the Renter has full knowledge of how to operate a Segway and the safety involved.

The REAL question here is how can the Rental place adequately train a Segway Renter. I think Segway LLC must be more involved.

What should also be considered is not allowing people who rent the 'RED KEY'. Something slower and more manageable for the renter might limit accidents for the inexperienced Segway Renter.

It is not like renting out a bike, you can train a monkey to ride one. It is not like renting out a car, where the state must determine whether or not one is qualified for this. The Segway is a new technology, and it must be handled a totally different way.

So, lets start discussing suggestions of how Rental Companies can make sure Renters are not putting themselves or others at risk of injuries, make sure they know how to abide by local laws, and to make sure they do this thing right!

pt · 06-01-2003, 09:30 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by vpv You're right Kelsey.. there a NOW question..

Here's what I think should be done now: LLC should allow more rental centers.... (just as they will be doing with Keolis, in France and is now doing with Nevrland.). They can provide guidelines on how to operate rental centers.

more places? vpv- i don't think you get a key point. many rental places -don't- want to work with segway, they don't want guidelines, that all costs money and cuts into profit. jack in canada didn't even show a safety video.

there's no reasons rental places will work with segway unless they're running a real biz, most of these places are "fly-by-night".

watch and see.

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by vpvCities should allow more rental centers to operate in their jurisdiction, either as part of the tourism/transportation hub (this will be a new revenue stream to them given the current budget & economic crisis of states and cities today)..

sorry, i do not buy it. that is not a reason cities should allow anything, cities -do- allow anyone to run any type of biz. if rental places open up across from a busy park and don't work with the city they'll get bans (like seattle). rentals need high traffic areas, like a park, the model is flawed.

i think you're missing some major facts here.

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by vpvRental centers ought to do as Larry has previously suggested to do, work with cities, improve training, etc. However, since they cannot initially discriminate between responsible vs irresponsible renters, unless previous irresponsible actions are known to the rental centers prior to renting, they cannot be held liable. Yes this will be a future court decision..

so you're saying rental centers need to run some type of background check on "irresponsible actions" and we're all heading for court decisions?

well, that sucks.

who is going to pay for all these court cases?

rental places can and will be found liable, watch and see.

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by vpvRenters, however, cannot be faulted just because they've invested less than we do on these machines. I don't buy the idea that owners are better than renters. It's a selfish idea. Do you think renters are more apt to mow down pedestrians than owners? NOT! If training is an issue, let them rent some more (it's their money), they'll learn more as they rent more...

i 100% think renters are more likely to mow down pedestrians.

that's right.

i 100% think renters are more likely to mow down pedestrians.

i've said it here before, i'll say it again. you can expect an accident to happen soon it'll be a rental situation. i hope i'm wrong, so far i haven't been.

do the math. lots of hts, small areas, new riders repeat x 10 hts x 8 hours per day x 7 days a week.

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by vpvRenters are responsible for their own actions, just like owners are. .

sorry, i don't agree. when rental places do not show videos, teach proper training and do not work with the city, etc...etc...the people who rent are going to cause accidents and incidents. it will be at the fault of the rider, but also the rental place which is motivated by profits.

you can't just say here's a segway, good luck, it's all your fault if anything happens. it doesn't work that way.

vpv, have you rented a segway ht? have you gone hundreds of miles in a major city for the last 6 months? have you spoke with 4 rental places? some segway authorized some not? i have. have you worked with your city's park, transportation, and other officials? i have.

i think you need to do some research.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

mrleisure · 06-01-2003, 12:37 PM

Hey Phil, it's called capitalism and it's really popular here in the western hemisphere. Thankfully, someone is willing to take of massive risk of being the first one to rent out Segways to the general public. The free market will sort these so-called "safety" issues out in no time.

I can right now, today, go rent a nail gun or a wood chipper and not have to watch a video. Or I could fly over to Nantucket and take on cobblestones with a rented moped. These activities are far more dangerous than riding a Segway on black without watching a video first.

Why should some random (and self appointed Segway authority) guy like you be the arbiter of what constitutes "proper training"? If someone rented me a jet-pack with only five seconds training I'd say that's really between me, him, and our insurance companies and I'd be really pissed if you or some park ranger came over bitching about lack of training when I was up jetting around.

I'm sick of people being concerned about my safety, if I want to ride my Segway down stairs, or have sex with hookers or do any one of a million other so-called "unsafe" things that is really up to me. Remember when Dean Kamen told you he moved to NH because he liked the state motto "live free or die"?

And why exactly are you so concerned about other people's safety anyway? I mean, holy smokes, we're talking about people rolling around sidewalks at 4 MPH aren't we? If you really care about public safety, why not go after something that has been statistically proven to be dangerous?, like say, motorcycles or skateboards.

06-01-2003, 03:39 AM	#1
PoloAk Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Anchorage, AK, . Posts: 566	We <dislike> Irresponsible Renters Alright. So there are rental agencies offering Segways to the infrequent user. PT is having some problems with this in Seattle because of irresponsibility. Seems that those agencies may not be training the riders effectively, and, with the inundation of a bunch of new users in a single area, complaints are coming up. So. . . What are your ideas on possible solutions? Granted, some of us dislike rentals altogether, but stating that is completely UNHELPFUL. The rental agency is already there. Think constructively and post frequently! Kelsey

06-01-2003, 04:03 AM	#2
stevew Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Belmont, CA, USA. Posts: 586	When a rental business sets up shop how do they acquire say 10 HTs? Is it ten individuals via Amazon (with ten people attending training) or a commercial sale. If commercial, doesn't Seg LLC regulate how commercial buyers use the product, i.e. no rentals unless set up through LLC. It seems Segway could stem this tide assuming HTs are acquired through commercial sales channel. Any thoughts?

06-01-2003, 04:22 AM	#3
vpv Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA, . Posts: 106	A rental center cannot be held responsible for irresponsible renters.. just like Avis Rental company cannot be held responsible for renting a car to an irresponsible driver. Training is not the issue either.... The Segway will be available in the future without mandatory training.. (at least that's the response from a Segway trainer when posed with the question of the future of Segway)... As a renter previously indicated, everyone will have learning curve. Whether that learning curve translates into accidents/deaths is mute too...(people had to learn how to drive cars that kill).. The real issue is how cities will have to accomodate this new technology because as Dean Kamen had alluded to several times, the HT is built for the cities. Recent bans are misguided, for many reasons. These bans will be contested all the way to the supreme court and will be reversed. Federal laws will be enacted that will accomodate these EPAMD's that will ensure the right of the rider and pedestrians.

06-01-2003, 04:33 AM	#5
PoloAk Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Anchorage, AK, . Posts: 566	Well, vpv, i completely respect your right to an opinion, which you state very well. I still disagree. The issue is how to deal with problems now. Kelsey

06-01-2003, 05:35 AM	#7
vpv Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA, . Posts: 106	You're right Kelsey.. there a NOW question.. Here's what I think should be done now: LLC should allow more rental centers.... (just as they will be doing with Keolis, in France and is now doing with Nevrland.). They can provide guidelines on how to operate rental centers. Cities should allow more rental centers to operate in their jurisdiction, either as part of the tourism/transportation hub (this will be a new revenue stream to them given the current budget & economic crisis of states and cities today). Rental centers ought to do as Larry has previously suggested to do, work with cities, improve training, etc. However, since they cannot initially discriminate between responsible vs irresponsible renters, unless previous irresponsible actions are known to the rental centers prior to renting, they cannot be held liable. Yes this will be a future court decision. Renters, however, cannot be faulted just because they've invested less than we do on these machines. I don't buy the idea that owners are better than renters. It's a selfish idea. Do you think renters are more apt to mow down pedestrians than owners? NOT! If training is an issue, let them rent some more (it's their money), they'll learn more as they rent more.. Renters are responsible for their own actions, just like owners are.

06-01-2003, 12:37 PM	#10
mrleisure Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Ashland, Or, USA. Posts: 332	Hey Phil, it's called capitalism and it's really popular here in the western hemisphere. Thankfully, someone is willing to take of massive risk of being the first one to rent out Segways to the general public. The free market will sort these so-called "safety" issues out in no time. I can right now, today, go rent a nail gun or a wood chipper and not have to watch a video. Or I could fly over to Nantucket and take on cobblestones with a rented moped. These activities are far more dangerous than riding a Segway on black without watching a video first. Why should some random (and self appointed Segway authority) guy like you be the arbiter of what constitutes "proper training"? If someone rented me a jet-pack with only five seconds training I'd say that's really between me, him, and our insurance companies and I'd be really pissed if you or some park ranger came over bitching about lack of training when I was up jetting around. I'm sick of people being concerned about my safety, if I want to ride my Segway down stairs, or have sex with hookers or do any one of a million other so-called "unsafe" things that is really up to me. Remember when Dean Kamen told you he moved to NH because he liked the state motto "live free or die"? And why exactly are you so concerned about other people's safety anyway? I mean, holy smokes, we're talking about people rolling around sidewalks at 4 MPH aren't we? If you really care about public safety, why not go after something that has been statistically proven to be dangerous?, like say, motorcycles or skateboards.

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