Japanese PM twists CS?

[Desert_Seg]

Pam - I'd suggest you move this to the OT area. Josh obviously can't take a hint.

Josh - Your facts are as skewed as your viewpoint. I am both a retired decorated Navy veteran and a business owner. I am also a well traveled American who has spent the better part of 30 years working to promote our country, our products, and our benefits (which include democracy, btw).

Now let me touch on your "facts"...

1. “Pre-emptive war based on lies.” (No WMDs)

WMDs were found. Do you, as others, conveniently forget the long range missiles that were found. Those missiles were in DIRECT VIOLATION of the UN agreements as signed by Saddam Hussein and which gave the right to any member of the UN Security Council to enforce them.

2. “No Bin Laden capture.”

Nobody has ever said that the war in Iraq had anything to do with the capture of Osama Bin Laden. And while I always chuckled at the thought of capturing Osama in days, I still believe we need to continue down this path.

3. “Torture and rape in Iraq by US (authorized by these neo-cons).”

Hmmm, never knew that rape was ever authorized by anybody. Yes, we have, in the broad sense of the word, tortured folks and yes, it was (and still is) deplorable.

4. “Rendition.”

Do you actually oppose the renditions or do you just use the word as a filler to make you list look longer. Renditions are nothing new and the only issue being opposed by most governments is the use of their country's airspace.

5. “Outing a CIA agent for political revenge.”

Do you have proof that it was for revenge or are you just repeating the same "facts" (please note the quotation marks) that others have tried to prove?

6. “Mishandling of Katrina and watching our fellow Americans starve and die for no reason.”

Please. Before you start spouting this drivel understand the actual chain of command. Prior to the Federal Government being able to provide help at the state or city level they must be asked in. Therefore, prior to the US Military or any other form of Federal Government support BOTH Mayor Nagin AND Gov. Blanco had to officially request this aid. Once this was done (four days into the disaster) the aid was provided.

Does this absolve FEMA of some of their miscues? No, but before you start casting aspersions know your facts.

7. “Gas prices soaring.”

Yep, gas prices are soaring but since the price of oil is dictated by OPEC, which last time I looked was NOT controlled by the Federal Government, and by the profit making oil companies, I don't see why you are throwing this into the mix. Unless of course, you are just trying to blur the reality!

8. “Spying on Americans and UN members without warrants.”

A) What UN members is the Fed. Govt. spying on?
B) Spying in what sense? And on whom? And how?

9. “Bushie falling off his Segway hurt Segway.”

Again, falling off a Segway has no bearing on anbody's ability to lead.

10. “And don't get me started on Cheney. Mr. pro-apartheid, anti-Martin Luther King Day, cutting school lunch programs for poor kids, anti-environment and on and on.”

Can you substantiate your pro-apartheid statemetn? Or you anti-MLK statement? of any of your other statements? Or, as seems to be your pattern, are you repeating drivel that is often tossed out to blur reality?

11. “You are either with us or against us.”

I'm not with you (Josh) nor with GWB. Nor am I against either of you. I'm my own person, doing what I believe is right for myself, my family, my city, my country, and those around me.

12. “Did Iraq perpetrate 9/11? Don’t think so.”

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, every said Iraq perpertrated 9/11. In fact, in two posts above you blamed it on the Saudis, as have many others. However, Saddam Hussein was known to support terrorism and did invade a friendly country. As the saying goes, an enemy of my friend is my enemy!

I'm am one of the most open minded individuals you will ever meet....and I know that everybody has the right to their own opinion and respect that. However, having been a regular on-air and in-the-press contributor (both locally and in the US), I am also very well versed in fact checking.

You will believe what you want to believe as will I. In the end all that matters is that when we agree to disagree (and that, by now, should be obvious), we at least respect the other's opinion.

If you want to get the last word (and I'm sure you will), go ahead, I will not respond any more. However, rest assured that while I may disagree with you I do respect what you have to say...but only wish you would do a tad bit more research (and Fox News is NOT research) before you quote "facts".

Happy New Year to all.....43 minutes into the new year.

Steven

--- EAMUS CATULI! ---

No person is truly useless. They may always serve as a bad example!

[william collins]

WOW did this thread go off the topic First Off I agreed with Steven..MOVE THIS TO OFF TOPIC..And how and why did SEGCHAT get to be a Policical Sounding board There are many other forums for this

-- live with love and care, upon the level and by the square

[KSagal]

Josh, I don't know you. I simply tried to make nice. Where do you get off on attacking me? I simply said that I thought you had the right to sound off, and in part that is what I served my country to guarentee.

I now see that I was wrong. I gave an inch, and you attacked me on several levels... I had presumed, that the experience that you offered as proof that you knew what you were saying was what you felt. I was my mistake. Do not worry, I will not rise to defend you again. An since we do not know eachother, I will give you this piece of unsolicited advice. Do not search me out.

quote:Originally posted by Josh Milrad

Ok, let’s go over my “facts’:

1. “Pre-emptive war based on lies.” (No WMDs)WMD's were believed to be there by all the intellegence gathering agencies internationally, including in the UN. The stated reason for action was the UN Resolutions, regardless of your re-write of history... Clinton said point blank that Sadam "Needed to be dealt with" and congress authorized action by an overwhelming majority...

2. “No Bin Laden capture.” True. No Bin Laden sightings either. Maybe he is dead in a cave. Again, previous administration had him and let him go. The appropriate knowledge was not there either.

3. “Torture and rape in Iraq by US (authorized by these neo-cons).” You do not know this. How do you know who authorized what? No credible investigation has revield what you say.

4. “Rendition.” Yes, your rendition of the events are not supported by the facts.

5. “Outing a CIA agent for political revenge.” There have been three official investigations into this charge, (Two headed by democrats) and not one single charge has been filed nor indictment tendered, except that one staffer was found to not offer credible testimony to the sequence of events related to testifying to the commission that declared that no crime was committed.

6. “Mishandling of Katrina and watching our fellow Americans starve and die for no reason.” I don't know of any who starved and died because of George Bush, though surely the feds could have been better here. I agree that the feds were almost as bad as the state and the locals who were criminally negligent in my opinion. And the reason was a large storm. And also, the Army Corp of Engineers tried 3 times in the last generation to rebuild those levies, but were stopped by local judge rullings on suits against the federal government by environmental groups in the area. They were concerned about the impact rebuilding the levies would have on the wetlands...

7. “Gas prices soaring.” They sure did. And the dot coms crashed under Clinton, so what? Gas is getting marginally better, but you do have a point that this was not stopped by the current administration... What should the president have done? I would like to know.

8. “Spying on Americans and UN members without warrants.” Authorized by every single president since Jimmy Carter. Why are you now complaining, as compared to the past?

9. “Bushie falling off his Segway hurt Segway.” Gratuitously disrespectful, but not provable either way. He stayed on his feet, despite the tennis racket in his hands. Goofy, silly, but he did not get hurt. It did create a lot of press, but most of it was negative on Bush, not so much anything about segway. Still, you may have a minor point here. Do you contend that when he falls off his bike that it is bad for the bicycle industry?

10. “And don't get me started on Cheney. Mr. pro-apartheid, anti-Martin Luther King Day, cutting school lunch programs for poor kids, anti-environment and on and on.” I don't know My Cheney. I am impressed that you have met him and have spoken to him... Did you know that this administration has spent more dollars on entitlement programs than any other, ever, in the history of the world?

11. “You are either with us or against us.” I said I defended your right to say your opinion, and did not attack you personally. You cannot say the same.

12. “Did Iraq perpetrate 9/11? Don’t think so.” I don't think so either. No one that I know of said they did. They were supportive of terrorists, however. Their payments to the family of homiside bombers is well known, as an example.

Even FOX news has reported much of this. The media is 80% liberal? Yeah sure, and the Jews control it all, right? Some of my best friends… THe pole I related what from the press. Just do a little research. The pole was reported on AP and simply asked reporters to lable themselves, it was nothing more than the self evaluation of those who responded, and greater than 75% reported themselves as left of center.

Everything else was my OPINION. Remember political dissent?
It’s popular in healthy democracies.

And by the way, I come from a very long line of decorated military veterans: my father, both grandfathers dozens of cousins from infantry to officers, aunts and uncles too. Many of my cousins went to the very top military colleges, graduated and became career officers. (FACT)

As for myself, I am more of a Peace Corps guy. But that is obvious. Were you in the peace corps or just talking about it? I would like to hear of your adventures in that corps if you were in it.

Maybe in ’08 we won’t vote for a president because we think we would like to have a beer with him. Lame. I did vote for president. This man won by more millions of votes than most have. I don't have all the details in front of me, but the majority of people who voted chose him. I wonder what it must be like to have such disrespect for someone who represents the majority of those who live around you?

I can’t believe I actually have to write this but I LOVE AMERICA. I am glad you wrote it because I could not tell. Words are cheap and I believe that actions speak louder.(Just so the goose steppers don’t question my patriotism.) IMO, we are just on a very hateful, destructive, shortsighted, illegal, mean spirited, exclusive course. Here I agree with you. You surely do seem to be on that course. But Americans have a way of correcting these problems as the pendulum swings back to normality. Let’s hope Bush’s ‘end of days’ comes long after he is impeached along with the rest of his cabinet.

Putting little flags and stickers on SUVs doesn’t make one patriotic. And yes you can support our troops and NOT support the mission/president. My uncle (a decorated, high ranking officer) taught me that. I am a bit surprised that your uncle would tell you that declaring that The US "tortured and raped" in Iraq is supportive. I would like to meet and speak to him, to find out his sources. I am sure that there is some miscommunication here. I know of no high ranking officer in the US services that would declare that torture and rape were authorized.

HAPPY NEW YEAR and God bless us all!

Hoping not to have to post on this again, but I will.

Lets’ glide!

P.S. KSAGAL… FYI, I’ve traveled extensively around the globe and peoples’ opinions of the US has changed for the worse greatly in these post 9/11 years. FACT. I have a wife and newborn child. FACT. I am also a business owner but I DON’T VOTE WITH MY WALLET! Also, I didn’t use my grades alone as proof of anything except that I don’t rely on FOX news or Rush alone for my political info. I went back and re-read your post. You listed your grades and the media. You were the one that put it in print. Do not attack me for repeating it back to you. (Or Air America for that matter)

It is insulting that you would attempt to label my “life experience” from an anonymous chat board. You grow up. I am glad for your experiences. DO not attack me on a personal level again. I’ve visited 22 beautiful countries on three continents and counting. Should I label you a hateful, goose-stepping, crusty, old, bald, white dude like Cheney? Moderator ! Why is it okay with you to allow attacks like this against me! This is completely out of line! Don’t think so. Put a fork in him…he’s done. Lol. I DON’T KNOW YOU. Peace. I would say that the preciding statements are not the way to engender Peace with me. I’m sure you are a “nice guy.” I would not like to hear what you would say to me if you thought I was not a nice guy!

I agree with you on this…
“I believe that some people would effect other people's lifestyle with legislation.” I never said that I feel that is the way to go. I said the opposite, and here you are just being obtuse.

It’s the this crop of Republicans doing this in our private lives, with our property, national debt, gay rights, raping the environment, religion in schools, being spied on and perpetual war. Not to mention his brand of born-again hypocrisy being shoved down our throats left and right. Tell me again how you don't listen to Air America?

We all heard/read a lot of crazy criticism of Clinton: murder, rape, whitewater, filegate, travelgate and on and on. All that investigating, 60 million dollars of tax money and nothing! Actually, he was removed from the Bar in his home state, and I believe is still the only president to have been impeached and found guilty. Also, he was not found guilty on sex charges, but for lying to congress, I believe. The impeachment bar is set very low and now the chickens are coming home to roost. I am unaware of any charges that have even been indicated toward the current president that would lead to impeachment.

Why would anyone be offended because someone verbally “attacks” our (cough, cough) president select? I do not understand what you mean by that term, he was the duly elected president by the majority of the voters and the electorial college. I believe that that office deserves respect. I am offended by your disrespect and ad homonym attacks, not you opinions. I personally enlisted in the Army and did the deed, not just talked the talk. I have no less right to my opinion than you, to be sure.

He is just a president… not a king. Not yet. We’ve had good, bad and ugly presidents. Get a grip. I have one, thanks.

GOD BLESS AMERICA! And everyone else too!
It's not about Democrats or Republicans or liberals or conservatives...
IT'S ABOUT RIGHT AND WRONG.

http://www.badongo.com/pic.php?file=...hNjericho2.jpg

"Wherever you go, there you are."
- Buckaroo Banzai

Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[Buckaroo Banzai]

Steven,

Let me start for thanking you for you service to out great country.
Seriously. It is good people like you who have insured our freedom to heatedly debate important issues openly without people questioning our patriotism.

However, it is interesting how differently our “fact checking sources” have interpreted the “facts” so differently. I could find “sources” that will tell us the earth is flat, we never went to the moon, Bush Sr. was involved in JFKs assassination, Prescott’s Bush’s huge support for the Nazis in WWII and that the holocaust never happened. Big deal. The truth is written by the conquerors not the conquered. Do you really feel good in your heart/gut about this war and this administration?

Ok, here we go again…

1. “Pre-emptive war based on lies.” (No WMDs)
This stands. Look it up all you want. Read the Downing Street Memos. Long range missiles? Give me a break. Who are we to tell anyone what weapons they can have? We are the only country who actually nuked cities filled with civilians in Japan. We and our allies don’t always adhere to every UN resolution/treaty do we? Who is going to keep us in check? The UN? Right. Would be even consider disarming (or not attacking) because the UN says so?

2. “Nobody has ever said that the war in Iraq had anything to do with the capture of Osama Bin Laden.”
Really? This shows how far you will go to defend the un-defendable. This was said, implied and inferred MANY times in our “march to war” and beyond by Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, etc. Look it up. Bait and switch, disgusting and many fell for it. The Bush clan knew they could never sell the American public on attacking Iraq without trying to make a connection. How many books written by x-Bush cronies need to be written for you to see this?

3. “Hmmm, never knew that rape was ever authorized by anybody. Yes, we have, in the broad sense of the word, tortured folks and yes, it was (and still is) deplorable. “
Again, look it up. There are pictures and video of us raping men & women (and reportedly children as their parents heard them screaming) in that famous Iraqi prison. When these images come out to the public, hopefully those responsible will be held to justice. Nothing has changed in that prison, sad but true. And our brave service men and women thought they were doing the right thing by following orders (from contractors!) that I’m sure they knew in their hearts were immoral. What would you have done? Seriously.

4. “Rendition.”
We should have the balls to do our own dirty work here not “out-source it” to others the way we did in Afghanistan in the mountains of Tora Bora when “looking” for Bin Laden and he “got away”. Yes, we did let him get away. Look it up. There are many good reasons for this as you know. Gotta have that boogie-man to scare us, right?

5. “Do you have proof that it was for revenge or are you just repeating the same "facts" (please note the quotation marks) that others have tried to prove?”
Let’s just wait and see. There is much circumstantial evidence to prove this. Enough to convict IMO. Enough to warrant a full investigation.

6. “Please. Before you start spouting this drivel…”
This is so sad. If you believe that Bush did all he could for the suffering people in LA (and Miss.), then he should be impeached for incompetence. What would Clinton have done? Or Giuliani for that matter? If you can defend Bush’s actions here, your true colors are showing. Live and let die, right? What about Barbara’s disgusting comments afterward? Family values? NOT! Giuliani would have been there in person, up to his balls in mud, leading the way and I’m not his biggest fan. Even Bush had to admit his mistakes on this one on TV. Did you see that? Pathetic. “Heck of a job Brownie!” How did that clown get to be head of FEMA? What ever happened to, “The buck stops here”? Even Bush had to take responsibility, can’t you see that?

7. “Yep, gas prices are soaring but since the price of oil is dictated by OPEC…”
Yeah, Bush/Cheney and their “secret energy meetings” had nothing to do with our current oil prices? Why were the meetings secret? This admin is so transparent with it’s evil it amazing. Haven’t you seen Bush holding hands with his beloved Saudi prince on tape? Where is their appreciation for us defending them and Kuwait? No flowers, no candy, no oil? Gas is about 10 cents a gallon over there. What a sad joke.

8. “Spying on Americans and UN members without warrants.”
The story broke days ago that Bush was bugging UN offices and thousands of Americans’ phone calls after 9/11 in many papers. Not to mention arrests and detentions of Americans for long periods of time with no access to lawyers, etc. Bill Of Rights anyone?

9. “Again, falling off a Segway has no bearing on anybody’s ability to lead.”
Maybe not but it DID hurt Segway!

10. “Can you substantiate your pro-apartheid statement? Or your anti-MLK statement? of any of your other statements?”
Look up Cheney’s voting record in Congress. It is hateful, disgusting, backward thinking and right there in print for all to see.

11. “I'm not with you (Josh) nor with GWB. Nor am I against either of you. I'm my own person, doing what I believe is right for myself, my family, my city, my country, and those around me.”
Same here brother.

12. “Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, every said Iraq perpetrated 9/11. In fact, in two posts above you blamed it on the Saudis, as have many others. However, Saddam Hussein was known to support terrorism and did invade a friendly country. As the saying goes, an enemy of my friend is my enemy!”
Really? This again shows how far you will go to defend the un-defendable. Are you telling me that the hi-jackers were not Saudi’s? Again, it was said, implied and inferred MANY times on our “march to war” that there was a “connection” between Iraq and 9/11 by Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, etc. Look it up. They had to retract much of this because it is so absurd yet they still flirt with that crap to this day to keep us confused I suppose. Iraq invaded a friendly country? Kuwait? Why would we defend a twisted little monarchy that oppresses women and sells oil to the highest bidder? How many American lives is that worth? This wasn’t about oil, please. With friends like Kuwait who need enemies? Have we pressed Kuwait to have elections? Selective morality. You can have Kuwait.

13. “I'm am one of the most open minded individuals you will ever meet...
If you have to say that, it makes me wonder. Some of my best friends are…
“And I know that everybody has the right to their own opinion and respect that. “
Mighty white of ya’!
“However, having been a regular on-air and in-the-press contributor (both locally and in the US), I am also very well versed in fact checking.”
Great, check YOUR facts, fact checker. What would it take to get you to admit that this guy is stupid and dangerous for America (and the world) and needs to go?

Yes, we disagree on the “facts”. Sounds like the Bush defenders are using the old, “It depends what the definition if is is”. Sounds familiar. And it was lame then too.

"Those Who Would Sacrifice Liberty for Security Deserve Neither." -Franklin

Patriot Act my arse!

HAPPY NEW YEAR STEVEN!
Peace to you and yours in '06 and beyond.
Let's continue this over a glide and some coffee sometime. You are obviously a very intelligent and interesting fellow.

P.S. I’m not interested in getting the last word. Not very democratic. It’s the debate and getting people to think before they vote I am interested in. If the votes are being counted that is. The notion of us having any credibility in showing other countries how to have honest elections after 2000 is the biggest joke in all this mess.

Excpet maybe the notion of sending Segway's into war.


"Wherever you go, there you are."
- Buckaroo Banzai

[Buckaroo Banzai]

“Pam - I'd suggest you move this to the OT area. Josh obviously can't take a hint.”

How Bushlike, trying to dictate who, when and where people should express themselves. What is wrong about one thread out of hundreds here being political? Amazing. Who do you think you are? Don’t you know who I think I am? Lol.

Now you are threatening me? You won’t see me crying to Pam like you did.
Careful, your true colors are showing again tough guy.

I’m not afraid of bullies like you and GWB, unlike some of us.

If I was base and classless like our VP, I’d quote him and say to you, “Go f**k yourself”. But I believe in open, honest debate, even if it gets personal sometimes.

Attack me all you want, my non-battle tested skin is pretty thick.
Get over it. We are all Americans first, right? You attacked me about a post that had nothing to do with you.

Maybe you’ve spent too much time in the Arab Emirates?
Come home soldier. We need your passion here.

P.S. Your last pass on my last post is so shameless. Why are you defending this nut? We are just going in circles. Let’s move onward and upward. We’ll see what happens. FYI, I listen/read all over the political spectrum. (Wall Street Journal, The Nation, Rush, Hannity, Air America, etc. etc.)

Keep questioning my patriotism. You are so transparent. Like listening to Hannity. Have some more kool-aid on me.

“Attacks” are one thing but ”threats” are something else.
Bullies always turn out to be wimps.

Get over yourself.

FYI, according to all polls, the MAJORITY of Americans DO NOT support this reckless, radical, cabal running our government and this clown who was appointed president after losing the popular vote to begin with.


"Wherever you go, there you are."
- Buckaroo Banzai

[pam]

Gosh, guys, I go to a movie and we've got WWIII here. This is getting too heated, methinks. If we could just discuss it, off-topic would be fine. But it seems to be getting personal, so I'm locking the thread.
Pam