12-18-2011, 09:37 PM | #11 |
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What I'm getting from your post is that all of this codifieding and resalutions need to be done by the government.
...and I feel that the only people that think that civil unions and marriage are anywhere near equal are those that have not delt with the issue from the end that is getting shorted. In my job I deal with these real world people on a regular basis. The problem is real, and state government is still governmet...
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12-18-2011, 09:40 PM | #12 | |
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And now, for whatever it's worth, let's put some real faces on this : Last edited by PeteInLongBeach; 12-18-2011 at 09:49 PM.. |
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12-18-2011, 10:59 PM | #13 | |
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I never said that civil unions and marriages are near equal, and never intimated it. And while we have had a few on line exchanges, we do not know each other, and you may find there are lots of things in my life that you have no idea about. So do not presume you know what another may know or not. I have lived a bit myself, and know a bit of real world experiences as well. I believe I have been clear how I feel, and while you have chosen to not read my posts carefully, you may want to go back and re-read them again before you add a bit of a quote from me and then respond in a manner as if we disagree, when it may not be so.
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12-18-2011, 11:03 PM | #14 |
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Pete,
I'll not willingly get sucked in. I do not know what those vids were referring to, and while I have just a tiny reservation or two on the first one, I have no substantial complaint about what she said, and have no reservation at all about the second one, feel he is as he said, a young man any parent would be very proud to call their own. I do not see how this in any way debates my points.
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12-18-2011, 11:33 PM | #15 | |
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As for the videos, I said "for whatever it's worth". Clearly, your comments show all it was worth to you. Last edited by PeteInLongBeach; 12-18-2011 at 11:45 PM.. |
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12-19-2011, 03:34 AM | #16 | ||||||
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And if the only reason mine were a civil union, rather than an equivalent marriage, differing only in legal terminology, were that my wife is Japanese -- I WOULD take offense at that. And my marriage was, in fact, forbidden by law in California until a 1948 CA Supreme Court case ruled that marriage is a right. And Massachusetts, where we were married, while it was legal after 1843 -- from 1913 to 2008, MA refused to recognize marriages between races if they were performed to get around such laws in other states. Yes, 2008. And yes, this was used against gay couples wishing to marry in Massachusetts. And, in fact, that is what led to its eventual repeal -- a victory for straight mixed-race marriages, obtained for us by gay couples wishing to marry. Quote:
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In fact, this is one of the biggest sore points. Yes, it could be fixed. But it is not, because civil unions are still considered a second-class relationship. The biggest single sticking point is that second-class status (or no status at all in many jurisdictions). People who have been in committed loving relationships even longer than my own (18 and counting), with kids, are treated as "not deserving". So long as both state and church try to lay claim to the word "marriage", the situation is hopeless. My solution is to take this toy away from both, and leave it up to the individuals. Churches can, if they wish, sanctify a marriage. The state can, equally to all, offer a legal framework. Quote:
People want solutions, because these are real issues that affect real lives. Do you personally know any gay couples? Have you ever discussed the issues they face? Do you know what hassles they deal with, even when legally married in the state in which they reside? I recently had a chance to catch up with an old friend, who was one of the first to be married in CA during the narrow window in which it was legal. She brought up a lot of things even I hadn't thought of. Like having to figure her taxes twice, two entirely different ways, for state and federal. We agree -- that's fixable. It's all fixable. People want it fixed. Quote:
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I guess what puzzles me the most is what society of the past you would regard as a model of fairness and justice we should consider emulating (or similar enough to avoid emulating their mistakes). I might agree or disagree, but at the moment, I'm just curious.
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12-19-2011, 03:54 AM | #17 |
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Bob, I agree 100% with all of your words!!!
KSagal, If I misunderstand you it is because you talk around an issuse and try to take or explain both sides of that issue. I came to this conclusion by going back and re-reading your statements. Sorry for the mis-understanding.
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12-19-2011, 09:24 PM | #18 |
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I have said, and feel, that the government is morally bankrupt, and should not be involved at all in this topic. I believe that for legal reasons, they should have one title of Civil Union, and define it by actions...
The actions I suggested as required for the governmental legal definition of civil union were to co-habitate, and have co-responsibility in financial matters. I am sure the government will add more requirements, like a license and a contract signed by both parties, and that both parties should be of majority age. I think that the government should divest itself of the ownership of the word marriage, and the condition of marriage being recognized by them. In matters of inheritance or taxes, or dissolution of common property, this too should be well spelled out. But politicians are lawyers, and they do not want it simple or clear. They want to insert themselves as integral to being a part of all decisions, and all matters. (And collect their fees for doing it) I believe that what two people feel for each other may very well be similar to the relationship I had with my wife before we had children and I have said, and say again, gender does not matter here. But I also believe that two people who love each other but cannot make their own children cannot have the same relationship I have with my wife, now that we have children. I am not saying any relationship is more, less, better, worse or any other comparative, just that is cannot be the same. This is my belief, and some will not respect my right to have it, and some will. I believe that there are no single parents, and am afronted every time I hear someone claim they are. There are single people raising children because the other half of their parents are not there for one reason or another. For the record, I also believe that divorce should not be a choice for responsible adults with children. If your relationship with your spouse or partner changes, but you have children that you are responsible for, it is selfish and damaging to those children to split up, and set conflicting and negative situations before the children, for them to deal with. Most all the price paid by a couple getting a divorce is paid by the children. Responsible adults need to do whatever is needed to stay intact, and respectful to each other, until the children are old enough to deal with it well, and that means they are no longer your dependents. (and not before) So, deciding to have kids, comes with at least a 19 year commitment. Do not do the deed if you are not willing to do the time. I also believe that all people should be treated with respect, including those who feel a man and a woman is the definition of 'Marriage'. They deserve respect as well, which is one of my reasons for expressing that I believe that word should not be in the government at all. It is too important to leave to the thieves and liars on capital hill.
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12-20-2011, 03:03 PM | #19 |
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12-20-2011, 03:29 PM | #20 | |
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"Treating people with respect" is different than "respecting their views" or even "respecting them". I can't speak for how Karl intended it, but I have no problem with his statement as I understand it.
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