Entrepreneur challenges Key West Segway ban - KeysNet

[KSagal]

Al,

If you read my post, I am sure you will see that I had guessed much of what is going on here. I have seen it all too often.

Legally, you have rights, but they are expensive to enforce.

I agree with Bob, that mixing up ADA access with general access is a hornet's nest. However, gaining access for one group is better than nothing.

It may be that when people see that segways are there, and they cannot tell who is using it for what reason, they may see the light. I fear not, as local politicians are rarely motivated by true altruism, but instead far more base and lowly motivations, like greed and power mongering...

Good luck.

[Boston Gliders]

All I can do at this point is press on. I have to continue to try to ensure access for everyone. I do have a vested take on changing the law. I also beleive everyone in the Segway community does also. Continue to allow city's to classify the Segway as a vehicle and deny it access and we will all be selling our Segway's to a third world country.

[GlennO]

Ok, I'm to cheat a little. I didn't read the article, but I basically know what is going on. There might be an easy way around some towns that don't want us to glide there.

I slipped some disks in my neck years ago and it damaged some nerves, and thus I can't exercise the way that I should. If I had a load of shopping bags to take home I would actually have to stop every block and rest my arms for a few minutes.

Why I'm telling you this is that I have considered my i2 my shopping cart. I can pick up 50 pounds of food at at supermarket, tie it all down and glide home in no time at all.

So wouldn't the local venders scream (silently, of course), if they'd lose a customer? I'd certainly never shop there. Distributing some flyers to the local shops with the mayor's phone number on it, of course, might help. Eh?

Glenn

[KSagal]

I agree with Glenn on this one.

I have glid in a mall near a hotel I use, when in North Carolina at my company's headquarters...

The very first thing I do, if I go to that mall, is go straight to one of the better anchor stores, and buy some item (I am in the mall to shop anyway, right?) and get a large shopping bag with the store name, and drape it over the handlebar...

You would be surprised how powerful a message that is to people who observe, that you are not just there, but shopping at a store who's manager has some clout. Sometimes, first impressions are very important.

Acting like a responsible shopper has its value, while in a mall.

The concept is the same.

[Bob.Kerns]

Glenn's idea is a good one. I don't think it's all THAT effective (as in, "this will solve the problem"), but it's a clearly positive step, and such things add up and can make a real difference.

The best approach, I think, is to combine such positive steps and education, familiarization, together with attacking the legal basis for any such policies. Just being seen on a Segway, not causing problems, I think contributes positively. I know I've been seen by many thousands, often in very crowded circumstances, or in circumstances that go counter to the stereotype.

[Boston Gliders]

Well I see every pot has a bean in it or is it needs a bean to boil. Either way, Do I have a vested interest in Key West having segway's yes but it is not for that reason that law suit is moving forward.

Even in the Law suit it states The state law has regulated the Segway PT as a Mobility Assistive Device. The city has created a discrimination policy by reguiring any user of a Segway to a screening or approval process. Since a Segway PT in Florida is legally a Mobility Assistive Device why are they not screening the use of other devices, i.e. rascals, scootarounds, hoverarounds all that can be purchased with out a prescription!

Treat us fairly, dont have your haterorade on me! I cant wait till we beat the city Im park about 20 of them on the city hall steps for rent!

[Lily Kerns]

Hmmmm.... Where does a doctor's approval fit into this equation to claim EPAMD.... or does it?

[Bob.Kerns]

Originally Posted by Lily Kerns

Hmmmm.... Where does a doctor's approval fit into this equation to claim EPAMD.... or does it?

I believe he was saying, "here, these other devices don't require a prescription either, but you're discriminating against this one".

I hope he has good enough lawyers to realize that doesn't constitute a legal argument. Whether it requires a prescription or not doesn't enter into it, legally.

It's a perfectly fine argument on common sense grounds, but we're talking the law here. It's the sort of thing that should have been considered when they came up with the policy, but won't affect whether the court intervenes and says "your policy is illegal". Courts don't usually get to say "your policy is stupid" -- unless there is a "no stupid policy clause" in the law.

Which there happens to be in the ADA, but it's not around prescription status.

But I'm confused: The text of the Key West ordinance indicates it's OK as a disabled mobility device.

article x11 - other transportation

Sec. 70-661. Personal assistive mobility devices prohibited.
(a) It shall be unlawful to operate an electric personal assistive mobility device on any street, road or bicycle path in the City of Key West. It shall be unlawful to operate an electric personal assistive mobility device on any sidewalk in the historic district of the city. It shall be unlawful to conduct or participate in a sightseeing tour in Key West with personal assistive mobility devices.

(b) Electric personal assistive mobility device means any self-balancing, two-nontandum-wheeled device, designed to transport only one person, with an electric propulsion system with average power of 750 watts (1 horsepower), the maximum speed of which, on a paved level surface when powered solely by such a propulsion system while being ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 miles per hour. Electric personal assistive mobility devices are not vehicles.

(c) Federal, state and local governmental agencies and utilities are hereby exempted from the prohibition of this section.

(d) The prohibition set forth in this section does not apply to wheelchairs or to any mobility device designed or used to assist a disabled person.

(e) A violation of this section shall be punishable as provided in section 1-15 of the Code of Ordinances.

So it would appear that, unless they're violating their own ordinance, any argument based on disability is legally irrelevant.

Florida state law gives them the right to regulate on safety grounds:

(5) A county or municipality may prohibit the operation of electric personal assistive mobility devices on any road, street, or bicycle path under its jurisdiction if the governing body of the county or municipality determines that such a prohibition is necessary in the interest of safety.

It would seem to me that, unless you're bringing an argument on constitutional grounds ("a right to mobility"), which would be interesting, but pretty constructionist and difficult -- unless you're doing that, you're going to be arguing over whether they in fact made a determination of necessity in the interest of safety.

It would seem very narrow legal grounds, but perhaps there's case law for what's required for such a determination, or perhaps you can establish it.

I think you're right, and a mindless declaration that grounds exist does not constitute an actual determination of necessity, which requires some sort of factual basis on which to make a determination.

But it strikes me as a chancier, more difficult argument, requiring good legal representation! So I'm wishing you luck there....

Have I properly discerned the nature of the suit?

I think we need more of these, BTW.

However, I think the real target should be the state legislators who put this into place without adequate safeguards. Some states explicitly forbid municipalities from instituting blanket bans; that's a bit better.

[sitseg]

First, I believe the only reason you are doing this is for your financial gain.


The Florida State statutes reads as follows:

316.2068 Electric personal assistive mobility devices; regulations.--
A county or municipality may prohibit the operation of electric personal assistive mobility devices on any road, street, or bicycle path under its jurisdiction if the governing body of the county or municipality determines that such a prohibition is necessary in the interest of safety.
316.003 Definitions.--The following words and phrases, when used in this chapter, shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this section, except where the context otherwise requires:
(21) MOTOR VEHICLE.--Any self-propelled vehicle not operated upon rails or, but not including any bicycle, motorized scooter, electric personal assistive mobility device, or moped.
(47) SIDEWALK.--That portion of a street between the curbline, or the lateral line, of a roadway and the adjacent property lines, intended for use by pedestrians.
(53) STREET OR HIGHWAY.--
The entire width between the boundary lines of every way or place of whatever nature when any part thereof is open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular traffic;
TRAFFIC.--Pedestrians, ridden or herded animals, and vehicles, streetcars, and other conveyances either singly or together while using any street or highway for purposes of travel.
ELECTRIC PERSONAL ASSISTIVE MOBILITY DEVICE.--Any self-balancing, two-nontandem-wheeled device, designed to transport only one person, with an electric propulsion system with average power of 750 watts (1 horsepower), the maximum speed of which, on a paved level surface when powered solely by such a propulsion system while being ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 miles per hour. Electric personal assistive mobility devices are not vehicles as defined in this section.




The Key West city municipal ordinance reads as follows:

ARTICLE XII. OTHER TRANSPORTATION

Sec. 70-671. Personal assistive mobility devices prohibited.
(a) It shall be unlawful to operate an electric personal assistive mobility device on any street, road or bicycle path in the City of Key West. It shall be unlawful to operate an electric personal assistive mobility device on any sidewalk in the historic district of the city. It shall be unlawful to conduct or participate in a sightseeing tour in Key West with personal assistive mobility devices.
(b) Electric personal assistive mobility device means any self-balancing, two-nontandum-wheeled device, designed to transport only one person, with an electric propulsion system with average power of 750 watts (1 horsepower), the maximum speed of which, on a paved level surface when powered solely by such a propulsion system while being ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 miles per hour. Electric personal assistive mobility devices are not vehicles.
(c) Federal, state and local governmental agencies and utilities are hereby exempted from the prohibition of this section.
(d) The prohibition set forth in this section does not apply to wheelchairs or to any mobility device designed or used to assist a disabled person.
(e) A violation of this section shall be punishable as provided in section 1-15 of the Code of Ordinances.
(Ord. No. 03-16, § 1, 7-1-2003)
Editor's note: Ord. No. 08-17, adopted Oct. 21, 2008, added provisions designated as §§ 70-661 and 70-662. To avoid duplication of section numbers, already existing § 70-661 has been redesignated as § 70-671, at the discretion of the editor.



Florida, like most other states, gave cities and counties the right to regulate electric personal assistive mobility devices at the local level.

The city of Key West has regulated them and you do not like the result. You want to obfuscate the issue under the ADA.

I think those who choose to falsely claim a disability for a right or privilege not otherwise available to them are Morally Bankrupt.

Subsection (D) of the Key West ordinance Exempts those covered under the ADA by qualifying mobility disabilities.

You have posted:

“ It kills me that the City would deny someone access to use the Sidewalk when there is a State law that provides that exact measure. The City would not move one inch, the issue does come down to someones right to choose their mode of assistive device. My issue is should the device be on the street or sidewalk and when I have people telling me no you are not welcome in either location Street or Sidewalk then its time to put on the gloves and go at it. “

But this is not your issue. You want to be able to rent segways and/or have tours on segways for the public.

The ADA allows, as does the Key West ordinance, “someones right to choose their mode of assistive device” when one has a qualifying mobility disability as defined in the ADA.

You have posted:

“Would we not all agree a Segway PT is Electric Personal Mobility Assisting Device? And in such that is what I stated.”

I will agree that the Segway is an EPAMD. It is defined under Florida law in that manner. Just because it has personal assistive mobility device in its name does not qualify it for protection under the ADA. Only when a Segway is used by someone with a qualifying mobility disability is the access provided by the Segway protected.

Analogous to this is a dog used as a service animal being able to go everywhere with the person it helps versus a dog that is a pet being restricted from going into most businesses.


You have posted:

“All I can do at this point is press on. I have to continue to try to ensure access for everyone. I do have a vested take on changing the law. I also beleive everyone in the Segway community does also. Continue to allow city's to classify the Segway as a vehicle and deny it access and we will all be selling our Segway's to a third world country.”

I believe you are doing it strictly for your own vested interest. You want to do this for your own financial gain. Key West does not classify the Segway as a vehicle. Its restrictions are in accordance with state law.

You have posted:

“Since a Segway PT in Florida is legally a Mobility Assistive Device why are they not screening the use of other devices, i.e. rascals, scootarounds, hoverarounds all that can be purchased with out a prescription!

Treat us fairly, dont have your haterorade on me! I cant wait till we beat the city Im park about 20 of them on the city hall steps for rent!”

Your statement about parking 20 of them on the City Hall steps for rent says it all. Your fight is only commercial in nature. You’re attempting to hide behind the ADA.


You have posted:

“All I can do at this point is press on. I have to continue to try to ensure access for everyone. I do have a vested take on changing the law. I also beleive everyone in the Segway community does also.”

People with disabilities already have access in Key West while using a Segway. You are trying to gain access for your commercial interest not for the greater community at large. Please don’t act like you are trying to achieve access for the disabled in Key West.

FYI: I hope that you are aware that if you lose your court case the winning party is entitled to be awarded their costs of litigation.

[KSagal]

Personal update. I had my segway at that mall in North Carolina this month, (I live in the Boston Mass suburbs) and the security guard stopped me outside the doors to the mall to tell me that I was not welcome on my segway...

I did not say anything other than I do not believe he has any written rule that he is enforcing, and that I had been in many times in the past, with no problems. He was not interested. I told him I would take my business elsewhere, and did.

I did not indicate any handicapped status, nor claim one... A bunch of teenagers (they could drive, may have been young (very young) 20s) were excited about my seg, and I gave demos before leaving, but only after giving a lesson in the civil way to ask a stranger for something. (He stepped up to owning the fact that he may have been rude or presumptuous in his first comments, even though they were all positive) and as a reward, I gave him the demo to the envy of his friends...


As to the issue in Florida, I have said many times and say again here, if a person is using ADA to hide behind, and to mis-represent their case, which is for personal gain, I do not support that behavior.

I do not know if that is the case here or not. All I have seen here has only served to further muddy the water, not clear it up.

I am happy to offer comments in support of any person in the segway community who is stand up, trying to do the right thing, and trying to advance the acceptance of segways. Sometimes this is to have a thriving tour business that brings positive attitude, revenue, and knowledge of how segways work to a community.

But that does not mean that each and every person in this community is good for it, presents a positive example, or is actually who they say they are. I am not willing to investigate all claims, and would like to take each case as it is presented. Unfortunately, some people take advantage, and that may make it worse for those who do not, as often people can not tell the difference...

All I can say, is that if this is a case of using ADA for personal gain, it is unacceptable. If that is not the case, and I hope so, I would like to see how it works out...