Situation in Israel

[Desert_Seg]

Originally Posted by pam

Maybe because Hezbollah also has an arm that is non-violent and actually provides humanitarian services to the population? Because there's a number of Hezbollah members that sit in their government? Mind you, I'm not defending Hezbollah, but I am pointing out why Hezbollah might be accepted in Lebanon.. and also why some people in Lebanon might well be pushed into defending Hezbollah, if Israel bombs civilians, women and children.

War begets more war until the last one is dead. How many generations did the Hatfields and McCoys feud?

Pam

Ah, the pretty face of Hezbollah or Hamas, the face with which they try to woo the people of the world.

Quick correction - Hezbollah does NOT have an unarmed force. They have a very well trained and militarily adept military force that is illegal in Lebanon as they are not part of the Lebanese Army. They are a military force with the stated objective of destroying Israel. They ARE a military force.

I agree that Hezbollah and Hamas have a great social welfare program and have done great things for the downtrodden and poor of Southern Lebanon and Palestine. I will also agree that both Hezbollah and Hamas have been very good at eliminating corruption within their hierarchy.

HOWEVER, in order to receive the social welfare money the recipient has to claim / declare fielty to either Hamas or Hezbollah. Hmmm, would you call this coercion.

Hezbollah and Hamas have also done some great infrastructure operations such as building roads, hospitals, and the like.

HOWEVER, they only do so in the areas they control, thereby providing benefits only to those who claim fielty to Hezbollah and allow them to "run" the region / area. Hmmmm, would you call this coercion?

The Hezbollah does indeed have members in the Lebanese Parliment (they control 23 seats and 2 ministries). Unfortunatly for the ruling party, they had to side with the Hezbollah in order to win the "power". Political foes in bed together or, in keeping with the times "The Devil wears Hezbollah Camis".

Finally, I ask you to look back at the various political revolutions we have had in the last century or so. What is are three things they all have in common?

1. Appealing to the poor and downtrodden
2. Turned into autocratic and dictatorial governments / countries once they won.
3. Discriminated against their people and killed millions IOT achieve their goals.

Don't be fooled by how clean cut Hassan Nasrallah looks.
Don't be fooled by how much spin they can cast.

Look at their military tactics:

1. They put most of their military weapons AT civilian areas
2. They fire most of their military weapons AT civilian areas

Then ask yourself why all the people who leave their organization go into hiding....

Then ask yourself one very simple question. If they (whether it be Hamas or the Hezbollah) are seeking peace for their people, why are they so willing to sacrifice their people?

Simply put, neither the Hezbollah nor Hamas are nice. Not at all.

Steven

Steven

[GyroGo]

Is it too late for me to change my last post to what Steven just said?

Steven, let me know when you're in Chicago, beers on me. Let me know if you need help with Cubs tix.

[Desert_Seg]

Originally Posted by GyroGo

Is it too late for me to change my last post to what Steven just said?

Steven, let me know when you're in Chicago, beers on me. Let me know if you need help with Cubs tix.

What could be better than a glide to Wrigley, taking in a game with a plie of brats and beer?

The glide home might be challenging but what a great day that would be!

Steven

[GyroGo]

Originally Posted by Desert_Seg

What could be better than a glide to Wrigley, taking in a game with a plie of brats and beer?

The glide home might be challenging but what a great day that would be!

Steven

Just avoid all routes through Lebanon - more challenge than skidding into that parking space with a stogie in one hand and a beer in the other.

Here's what i'm talkin' about:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13961120/

[pam]

I've edited your post, only so because I'm only replying to part of it - not because the rest of it has no value, it has value...

One of the things I've seen over the years, has been that when people are shocked, when they perceive that their lives are in tatters, they will support anything that brings them a sense of strength, that provides them with literally day-to-day support, that makes them feel safe.

Looking at Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, the need to be fed and housed will always be met before some of the "higher" needs can even be addressed. Many people will give up freedom in a heartbeat if they fear that those needs will be not be met. As I recall, Lebanon has had a history of war, with the poor people caught in the middle. You can blame the poor, but that's blaming the victims.

And yes, neither Hezbollah nor Hamas are nice - however, I think the question originally was, why didn't the people tell them to get out. I'm guessing that this is the reason.

Pam

Originally Posted by Desert_Seg

Ah, the pretty face of Hezbollah or Hamas, the face with which they try to woo the people of the world.


I agree that Hezbollah and Hamas have a great social welfare program and have done great things for the downtrodden and poor of Southern Lebanon and Palestine. I will also agree that both Hezbollah and Hamas have been very good at eliminating corruption within their hierarchy.

HOWEVER, in order to receive the social welfare money the recipient has to claim / declare fielty to either Hamas or Hezbollah. Hmmm, would you call this coercion.

Hezbollah and Hamas have also done some great infrastructure operations such as building roads, hospitals, and the like.

HOWEVER, they only do so in the areas they control, thereby providing benefits only to those who claim fielty to Hezbollah and allow them to "run" the region / area. Hmmmm, would you call this coercion?
Then ask yourself one very simple question. If they (whether it be Hamas or the Hezbollah) are seeking peace for their people, why are they so willing to sacrifice their people?

Simply put, neither the Hezbollah nor Hamas are nice. Not at all.

Steven

Steven

[Desert_Seg]

Originally Posted by pam

One of the things I've seen over the years, has been that when people are shocked, when they perceive that their lives are in tatters, they will support anything that brings them a sense of strength, that provides them with literally day-to-day support, that makes them feel safe. ... And yes, neither Hezbollah nor Hamas are nice - however, I think the question originally was, why didn't the people tell them to get out. I'm guessing that this is the reason.

Pam

Yes, Maslow's Theory of Needs does apply. However, ask yourself, how did the Lebanese people get into these dire straits? 20 years of civil war, followed by military action against Israel.

Who was behind the civil war and the military action against Israel? The Muslim factions.

Who was was one of the the Muslim factions? Hezbollah

Ergo, Hezbollah created the problem that then stepped in and fixed, with help from Syria and Iran, help that neither Syria nor Iran offered to mainstream Lebanon.

You're right, the Lebanese people didn't ask them to leave but that's hard to do staring down the barrel of a gun. You also need to be aware that many of the Hezbollah followers are displaced Palestinians who live in refugee camps in southern Lebanon (the Bekkaa Valley is dotted wth them) or in Southern Beirut.

The amount of anger at the Hezbollah that I see now is easily ten times greater than I've ever seen before. Hassan Nasrallah didn't help himself or the Hezbollah when he announced this morning that the kidnapped Israeli soldiers would never be returend, except during an exchange for prisoners being held by Israel, regardless how many people died and how much pressure was placed upon them by the world community.

Steven

[pam]

Yes, I've also noticed that now that a lot of their basic needs have been met, infrastructure improved, etc., some Lebanese are finally getting angry with Hezbollah for endangering it.

As I see it, Nasrallah is doing himself and his party no good by promising unending warfare... which is a perceived possibility if he intends to hang onto his prisoners. I think, though, that he's hoping that if the Jewish keep attacking Lebanon, then the population will get angry with the Jews for ruining the infrastructure and he'll come out OK. He's playing a game of "chicken" with this, I think. (For our non-USAn's, that's a game that was/is played between teenagers [usually male with more testosterone than brains] where they'd take two cars, sitting on the center line of the road facing each other but a distance apart. They'd race towards each other and the one who veered the first to avoid a crash was called "chicken" - )

Pam

[GyroGo]

Originally Posted by pam

You can blame the poor, but that's blaming the victims.

I'm not blaming the victims. In fact, I offer that since they aren't able to help themselves, Israel is doing them a favor. France helped us in the Revolutionary War (I think that was the last time ) and how many times has the US fought to the benefit of other countries, other peoples? Hmmm, just every war on foreign soil.

Those Lebanese who have been opposed to Hezbollah but have failed to act (but not supported them) because of Maslow's needs are true innocent victims, and Israel is doing them a real favor by doing their work for them. (To say nothing of the history of American war heros who sacrificed all basic human needs, including life itself, for the higher societal good - for liberty from tyranny, for freedom, for honor, for principal, for the future of their people).

Those Lebanese who have provided even tacit support to Hezbollah must bear a level of responsibility for Hezbollah's existence, they chose to not support the alternatives.

[KSagal]

Much of this reminds me of the exact same situations that exist in almost every single society in the world...

In Boston, in decades past, there was an Irish Mafia that was called the WInter Hill gang. The were a brutal band of thugs that murdered many innocent people. They also force many legitimate businesses to pay 'protection' money. Many times, the protection was from them.

They also did provide services to those whom they victimized. If you had a shop and paid your fee to these criminals, and someone else up the street wanted to start a shop to compete, these thugs would help you, unless the other guy paid a bigger fee.

Many people felt helpless to fight these powerful mobsters.

Most major and many minor cities had similar stories.

Most every congress and government agency has some level of corruption.

But is all comes down to where the lines are drawn. Hezbollah is far more than a group of thugs skimming some from the larger society. THe legitimate government of Lebanon is afraid of them. If they speak against these brutal animals, Prime Minister, or anyone's life is forfit.

What is the difference between a local thief and the way the big dig (15 Billion $ tunnel road system) that is in Boston, yet the tunnels are falling in. The difference is the intensity.

A group of thugs in a larger society has a negative effect. That group taking over, dismantles that society, and it stops being a civilization.

To legitimize Hezbollah in any way by saying that they do positive things for the invironment they create is to ignor their tactics. They hide amongst their own children. They target other people's children. I do not care what road they built so that they can move their illegal rocket launchers around, and for a fee, they may let the locals use it...

They say that Stalin killed and jailed 100s of thousands of people, but the trains ran on time. (Because a conductor on a late train was likely to get shot). Some will ignor all but the train timetable...

I am constantly in awe of people that have a very liberal and self labled progressive bend, that are very consilitory and want to allow these honorless beasts to continue to attack Israel, when if the tables were turned, these beasts would have absolutely no hesitation in killing the very people who cut them the most slack...

We have many places around the world where we can sit back and pontificate on the pro and con of this and that. Those who are in northern (no, all of) Israel, or southern Lebanon cannnot sit around and debate this. They are huddling in dark holes and are wondering if they will survive another day...

How would you feel if the street gang in the next town had missles aimed at your house, and they had already killed your neighbor? You would not care that they sometimes give the disenfranchised youth as sense of belonging, you would want the government to route them out! On the other hand, when it happens far away, it is easy to say the authorities are too heavy handed...

So often, we make decisions from a distance that would not be the same ones we make when in the battle...

I believe that there is no justification for this violence. Unfortunately, you cannot have peace with people that do not want it. I beleive that Israel wants peace, but that Hezbollah does not. I also believe that Israel feels that because of this, there will be no peace as long as Hezbollah can cause a threat. I agree, and the sad part is, so does Hezbollah...

[pam]

You know, Karl, if you'd quit calling people names, based on your own ideological bent, you might find that they agree with you.

I'm simply stating what is (people who suffer depredations tend to seek to have those needs met and will support those who help them get their daily needs met, which may be one reason why the Lebonese have allowed the Hezbollah to operate within their borders), I'm not saying that Hezbollah is a "good" organization. Nor do I believe this to be a "good" war.

I am not in a position to legitimize them or not. Discussing what they have done which has contributed to the situation at hand does not legitimize them.

Cheap shots at "liberals" or "progressives" are not necessary nor appreciated.

Pam