Crazy Beggar Woman Lobs Trash at Me & Herbie...

[KSagal]

There is far too little information for us on this forum to begin to have a clue what the true situation was that led to that woman being where she was, doing what she was doing...

While we can agree that throwing bio matter at a person is antisocial, more than that, including motive is impossible to say...

There has been some insensitivity shown here (mine and others) and some very compassionate posts as well.

While Jeremy's post is heartfelt and compassionate, I do not really agree with his conclusions. Of course, I did not live thru what he did, so I will not contradict his observations, just state my own.

There is a resonate theme in many of Jeremy's posts, and those of many others here that there are some things that we do which we are not responsible for. Some things that are beyond our ability to affect.

This is what I do not agree with. I firmly feel that we are completly and ultimately responsible for all that we choose to do.

Clearly, children will have to live the results of the decisions their parents make, and that is not always fair, but once a person has reached the age of 18 or so, they have the ability to sink or swim on their own... Those who had a life where their parents gave them the opportunity to learn good lessons, and see good results have a clear advantage, but there is far more to success than just this...

Literature and history are chock full of stories of people comming from poor, or meager beginings and becomming millionaires, or two twins becomming a cop and a crook, or many other stories of opposite results from similar starts. Equally common is that of the rich or privalidged who go on to become dispicable human beings...

While I will concede that some or even many events may seem to happen beyond our control, how we react is always a choice. Not always a good choice, but it is still our choice.

The more the society around us tries to convince us that the government, or anyone else is ultimately responsible for us, for making sure we don't do too much of this or not enough of that, the less we live our own lives.

Life is not easy. Life is not fair. Life is still the responsibility of the individual who is living it.

Some may say that a person sitting in their car, at a red light is 100% not at fault if someone comes up behind them and rear ends their car...
I do not agree. That person chose that route, chose to be at that light that day, chose to drive that direction, chose to stop at the light, and many other contributing factors. Legal liability is not the same as responsiblity.

I know people with tremendous physical challenges who live active and productive lives and contribute a great deal to the society around them. I know people with virtually no challenges other than their lack of ambition who live sedentary non productive lives, and are a functional burden to the society around them. There is a full range of folks between.

The more I wait for the government, or charitable organizations, or the lottery, or the casino, or my parents to make my life better, the longer wait I will have, and the the further from most reasonable and honorable goals I will get.

These are my own views, and clearly are not the views of many. They are, however, the views in my opinion that made America great.

I don't want to come off too cold. I believe that compassion and helping others is a very important part of life, and I participate in that as much as I can, and I believe others should as well. I just do not believe that sitting and waiting for others to do this for us is a productive place to be...

[jryan]

I do agree somewhat with you Karl and enjoyed your post! One thing I enjoy about you Karl is that you will not always agree with my points or everyone elses for that matter but that I have never seen you attack anyone! I, as well as many others here, am guilty of not always completely thinking througth what I say and responding more out of anger than anything else. The fact is that when two people take this approach they both look worse rather than better. Karl, on the other hand, has responded to me and others in a very constructive way, even when he was attacked. That was just a tangent though but something I felt like mentioning. In response to Karl's post however, I must say that it is true. Individuals do not have complete control over what happens to them but do have control of how they react. I was merely pointing to the fact that there is not always opportunities for people to get out when they are homeless! Without an address you cannot always get a job that is just the facts. Now here's the problem with assuming the government should provide assistance. The fact is that some people are homeless because of drug addictions, lack of motivation, etc. If you provide them with assistance you are basically feeding the fire and that is not a good thing. The other problem is there are some people who work hard their whole life. They live comfortable lives. They are all around good people and they just fell on hard times. They have no where to turn and become homeless. So the fact of the matter is that a person who becomes homeless and decides to do crack to get his mind off of it has no sympathy from me. The person who makes $100,000 a year and has no family and fake friends but comes down with cancer and loses his job due to treatments (like a friend of mine) deserves help. Now you may wonder how that friend became homeless. This particular friend was very wealthy and gave a lot of money to helping out the poor. He volunteered several hours at the local boys and girls club. Once he got cancer his boss fired him due to lack of performance. It was really due to absences as this man worked hard. He lost his Cobra insurance 6 months later as he continued treatment. Eventually his treatments just went to collections and didn't work. He was told about an expierimental treatment that would possibly keep him alive. the doctors gave him 6 months to live without it. He had to pay upfront and this treatment was expensive. It was his only chance to live. He took out a second mortgage on his house and paid for the treatments. 4 months after that his house was taken away and he had no job. He also could not get a job because of his situation. He was homeless along with his 2 kids. To someone in this situation I would feel sympathy for and would certainly help them out. This man is still my friend and is doing good now. I let him live with me so he could establish himself and his cancer was cured and he got a job. He now supports himself. But imagine if this person would not have had someon like me and would not have an address to use. They would be stuck with no where to turn. That is where I say some people need assistance.

Jeremy Ryan

[SEGsby]

I have to completely disagree with Karl... It's my nature. *shrugs*

Not everyone can control themselves, and because of that, they can not always be held responsible for their actions. These people are typically labeled as Mentally Ill, due to an inability to display generating good, long term choices for themselves, within society. This inability can also occur temporarily via the use of drugs; like Booze, or Heroin.

Let me draw upon a real world example:

Growing up, one of my younger brothers suddenly became Mentally Ill. Oddly enough, it occurred a week before his High School graduation. We guessed it might have been due to bad homemade drugs he took at a party? Dunno, but I still recall to this day, when he stared out the kitchen window with a lost expression on his face and said to no one in particular, "Man, I'm going to have to change my ways..."

And change he did. For 12 years he was in and out of Mental Hospitals and smaller Community Facilities. He was far too violent and unresponsive to known treatments to be cared for at home. Then Ronald Reagan came to power, and let people like my brother lose into the greater society, to save the government money... Thanks Ronnie!

Eventually, my brother took to living on the streets, even desiring the freedom of it, to being inside where it was warm. He didn't fit anywhere and there was no place for him to go. This legislative policy hasn't changed since, and is one of the main reasons why the Venice Boardwalk is the way it is, when the sun goes down each night.

I have seen for myself what a damaged mind is capable of. My brother was now clearly living in a different world; one that was completely alien to me. He heard, saw and smelt things that I didn't. There was no warning, or method of knowing, what he was reacting to from one moment to the next. Even his ability to speak clearly and sensically was mostly gone. He tossed an amazing word salad. Sometimes it rhymed, sometimes it didn't... At times, it was obvious even he knew he wasn't making sense, but couldn't do anything to correct it. It was painful to watch.

To an outside observer, his ability to tie cause and effect together, just didn't work the same way anymore. A great example was how he rewired all the upstairs electrical outlets in his bedroom, to confuse the "spirits" that he apparently thought were 'leaking' in, while he slept. It took a professional electrician 3 days to fix the damage. The repairman told my mother she was lucky the house didn't burn down.

How can someone like that be held responsible for their bizarre actions? Being responsible implies they fully understand what they did. And I've witnessed in my own life, growing up with my brother, that's just not always the case for everyone.

As our understanding of how changes to the physical structure of our minds & bodies causes disease & cognitive impairment, it also improves our ability to fix such issues. There is more hope now for these people, than ever before. But this transition to better medical knowledge sometimes leaves an unpleasant taste in some people's mouths; that damaged people aren't held to the same high ethical standards as their ancestors once did.

It might seem contrary to how we were raised long ago, but the medical world's thankfully changed so much for the better, since then. So the mythos of imposing the same emotional, intellectual and ethical bar to all people at all times; needs to be finally put to rest. Everyone we're learning, is different, so our expectations need to also, be different.

Like the rest of American historical baggage; from burning Witches, Slavery, or killing Indians for their land and resources-- these old ideas need to be put to bed, once and for all. Lobotomy's for problem kids, forced Isolation & Reproductive Sterilization, quiet campaigns for Euthanasia of the Mentally Ill inside Hospitals, or letting Black Patients in Tuskegee go insane with Syphilis to study the effects-- that's not an America I want to see a return to.

Those actions were indeed a part of US history; but such things never really made America or Americans, GREAT, to my mind. The first real step twards greatness, is understanding the problem, so you can fix it...

SEGsby

[pam]

And another thing to throw into the mix. Most psychotic breaks occur during the teen years, and not all are drug related.

Plus, the prefrontal cortex, the decision maker in our brains, does not fully mature until the mid-twenties. Which is why many teens make such poor decisions. {sigh}

And, finally, as a society, we advertise that drugs are the solution to all our problems. Admitted, they're prescription or OTC drugs, but the truth is, the message is there, because the companies that make the drugs want to sell them.

Sorry to hear your brother's story, Segsby, I know it's been a rough row to hoe for your family, and for him.

That said, we're verging off-topic with this thread. I'm going to move it into off-topic, at least temporarily, so this conversation can continue - if the members wish it to do so.

Pam

[David Long]

Originally Posted by segsurfer

I must agree with the general consensus that the woman suffered from some sort of mental illness.

It's a shame that here in California, the liberal politicians have foisted upon us the irrational and uncaring policy that mentally ill people can't be forced into the care they desperately need.

[bentbiker]

Originally Posted by David Long

It's a shame that here in California, the liberal politicians have foisted upon us the irrational and uncaring policy that mentally ill people can't be forced into the care they desperately need.

That sounds more like a conservative or Libertarian stance to me.

[David Long]

Originally Posted by SEGsby

Then Ronald Reagan came to power, and let people like my brother lose into the greater society, to save the government money... Thanks Ronnie!SEGsby

Actually, Ronald Reagan decreed that the stiffling sanitarium warehouses needed to be closed and the borderline mentally-ill patients moved to half-way homes in the neighborhoods where they could be reintegrated with society. It was the Democratic-controlled legislature which didn't fund these half-way homes, with the ascendency of the so-called 'patients rights' movement. All a borderline mentally-ill person needed to do was say 'no' and they were ignored and allowed to victimize or be victimized; such is the 'caring' policy in place today.

[KSagal]

Please let me start with the comment that I do feel for your family and your brother, as that was indeed a heart wrenching story.

Originally Posted by SEGsby

I have to completely disagree with Karl... It's my nature. *shrugs*

Not everyone can control themselves, and because of that, they can not always be held responsible for their actions. Where people draw the line of who should be held accountable and who should not is not the same, and who should draw that line? These people are typically labeled as Mentally Ill, due to an inability to display generating good, long term choices for themselves, within society. Mental illness is one thing, self damage caused by accident or poor choices is quite another. I used reaching the age of 18 as a threshold, and that could be a mental age of 18, a maturity age of 18, or some other guage. Agaiin, who draws this line, and on what criteria? This inability can also occur temporarily via the use of drugs; like Booze, or Heroin. Choosing to use drugs is a choice, the results may be tragic, and often are, but are the results of the choices made, not the responsibility of those who make better choices. It could be argued that it is the responsibility of the parents to teach their children better decision making but we are generally loathe in this society to hold people responsible for their choices, (including the chice to have children, or to engage in activities which will produce children) which was my original premise.

Let me draw upon a real world example:

Growing up, one of my younger brothers suddenly became Mentally Ill. Oddly enough, it occurred a week before his High School graduation. We guessed it might have been due to bad homemade drugs he took at a party? And the choice to take these drugs was not a choice? How about the choice to go to that party? Your story may be a tragic one, but it may also be the tragic consequenses of poorly thought out choices, which I maintain are the responsibility of those who made those choices, not someone else... Dunno, but I still recall to this day, when he stared out the kitchen window with a lost expression on his face and said to no one in particular, "Man, I'm going to have to change my ways..." ( YOu were not absolutely clear here, and maybe because you do not really know, but brain damage caused by taking drugs is not the same as mental illness caused by desease or some developmental issue. I am not condemming your family or brother, just pointing out that the results may look similar, but the cause is not the same.)

...

As our understanding of how changes to the physical structure of our minds & bodies causes disease & cognitive impairment, it also improves our ability to fix such issues. There is more hope now for these people, than ever before. But this transition to better medical knowledge sometimes leaves an unpleasant taste in some people's mouths; that damaged people aren't held to the same high ethical standards as their ancestors once did.

If a person gets drunk, and drives, and causes a head on collision with another car, and as a results, looses the use of both his legs, it is tragic. If the car he hits was a father on his way to work, to provide for his family, and he also looses his legs, it is also tragic.

I ask, is it the same? Both families are dealing with similar physical issues.

I know I am marking myself as a villian here, but the first guy is a criminal, a villian, and will have to live the rest of his life with the results of what may have been a single bad decision...

However, the second guy will also have to live the rest of his life with the results of the bad choices of another, thru far less fault of his own, and is much more the victim here, and deserves far more consideration from society as a whole than the first guy.

I am painting myself as cold, but the first guy's problems move me far less than the second guys problems...

It might seem contrary to how we were raised long ago, but the medical world's thankfully changed so much for the better, since then. So the mythos of imposing the same emotional, intellectual and ethical bar to all people at all times; needs to be finally put to rest. Everyone we're learning, is different, so our expectations need to also, be different.

Like the rest of American historical baggage; from burning Witches, Slavery, or killing Indians for their land and resources-- these old ideas need to be put to bed, once and for all. Lobotomy's for problem kids, forced Isolation & Reproductive Sterilization, quiet campaigns for Euthanasia of the Mentally Ill inside Hospitals, or letting Black Patients in Tuskegee go insane with Syphilis to study the effects-- that's not an America I want to see a return to.

You were good a pointing out some of America's baggage. Interesting how you left out how we also saved the world from the facism of the Nazi's, Hiroheto (sp?) and others in WW2, how we have created a higher standard of living for more people for a longer period of time than any other country in modern history, how we have enabled the human spirit to soar to higher heights than ever before in the history of man, how this is a country where millions and millions of people break the law and risk death daily to break INTO. If we were such a bad place, as your examples above seem it indicate, that would not be so...

I have seen many images of boat people from around the world arriving in the United States. I do not recall seeing boats full of Americans arriving on other shores looking for salvation.


Those actions were indeed a part of US history; but such things never really made America or Americans, GREAT, to my mind. The first real step twards greatness, is understanding the problem, so you can fix it...

SEGsby

I never said the US is perfect, it is not. I did say that independent spirit and a sense of self responsibility was integral to the American identity. I still beleive that the farther we stray from that, the farther from our path we go...

[pam]

Unfortunately, it wasn't only borderline mentally ill in those stifling warehouses which Reagan wanted closed. There's a big difference between "borderline mentally ill" and many of the people we see that are homeless, who are full blown mentally ill.

So, the initial line here (IMHO) is still Reagan's . Along with the assumption that somehow the private sector would take up the support of the programs (which is what he stated at the time - I remember, because I was in social work school, and watching all the funding go away from various programs because of the expectation that somehow the private sector would take over - which we all knew was not likely.... when has business considered itself responsible for supporting mental health funding ?? And I wouldn't expect them to do so.). Our mental health and poverty support is a throw back to the Elizabethan Poor Laws of 1601.

I'd be curious to see the voting records on funding the half-way houses. And to see which bills it was put into - I've learned enough about our government to know that saying "the democratically controlled congress" killed funding might not give a full picture of what REALLY went on.

Pam

Originally Posted by David Long

It's a shame that here in California, the liberal politicians have foisted upon us the irrational and uncaring policy that mentally ill people can't be forced into the care they desperately need.

Liberals?

Guess again. That was foisted on us Californians (I was living in California at the time) by Governor Ronald Reagan. In budget cutting for health services, Ronnie boy came up with the 3-day rule... no one can be confined to a psychiatric facility, against their will, for longer than 3 days.

Then, he slashed what medication MediCal would (and, more importantly would not) cover. Most psychiatric drugs were cut, as Ronnie and his cohorts in the state senate painted a picture of all these perfectly healthy people getting these drugs, paid for by the state, then turning around and selling them to our school children.