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Old 08-17-2010, 10:54 PM   #11
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I find it interesting that while I do not think it is appropriate for the building of a Mosque near ground Zero, even if it is not illegal, the conversation is not going at all to a real legal problem where the government of New York has denied permission for the building of a church at the Ground Zero site.

A Greek Orthodox Church, called St. Nickolas, was crushed by the falling of the towers. It was an established church at ground Zero, with hundreds of years of history, that has been denied permission to rebuild. That's right, an established church that has applied for and not been given permits to rebuild, yet the Mosque had no problems.

This is a function of political correctness not only running amok, but being very selective in doing so.

Perhaps the real threat is from Greek Orthodox terrorists? I don't think so.
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:09 PM   #12
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Christians did not fly the planes into those towers, and claim that Jesus made them do it. The same cannot be said for Muslims.
so.....You are saying that Muslims flew planes into the towers and claimed that Jesus made them do it? That is a perspective that I have not heard anywhere else. Are you certain that this is what you meant to say?

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And for the record, the most intolerant people I personally know are very liberal self proclaimed progressives, who have only hatred and venom to spew at anyone who has other views than theirs. Of course, they do not think of themselves as haters, or their views as intransigent, because they know they are the enlightened ones, and everyone else is just wrong. Therefore, you can hate wrong, and still be right.
So it is those pesky liberal progressives that are intolerant, and spew hatred and venom? Some do, but not all . Some conservative people spew hatred and venom too, but not all of them. Consequently, cannot lump all conservatives into one pile. Nor can one hold reasonable conservatives responsible for the actions of the conservative lunatic fringe.

Similarly, a reasonable person can not hold all Muslims responsible for the actions of a Muslim lunatic fringe. By definition, a person who treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance, simply because they are members of that group, are, by definition, bigots.

Frankly, about some things, I agree that I am intolerant. Bigotry and hypocrisy are pretty close to the top of my "do not tolerate" list.
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:23 PM   #13
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so.....You are saying that Muslims flew planes into the towers and claimed that Jesus made them do it? That is a perspective that I have not heard anywhere else. Are you certain that this is what you meant to say?



So it is those pesky liberal progressives that are intolerant, and spew hatred and venom? Some do, but not all . Some conservative people spew hatred and venom too, but not all of them. Consequently, cannot lump all conservatives into one pile. Nor can one hold reasonable conservatives responsible for the actions of the conservative lunatic fringe.

Similarly, a reasonable person can not hold all Muslims responsible for the actions of a Muslim lunatic fringe. By definition, a person who treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance, simply because they are members of that group, are, by definition, bigots.

Frankly, about some things, I agree that I am intolerant. Bigotry and hypocrisy are pretty close to the top of my "do not tolerate" list.
This is one post that has very little to complain about. I know your twist on all that you say, but point for point, this is not too bad.

Yes, Muslims are unlikely to say that they flew the planes to appease Jesus. But if we agree on that, what exactly would you say was their motivation?

I never said that all liberal progressives do anything. You would have to lie to say that I did.

I also never said that all Muslims are responsible for what some Muslims do. You would have to lie again to say that I did.
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:06 AM   #14
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I find it interesting that while I do not think it is appropriate for the building of a Mosque near ground Zero, even if it is not illegal, the conversation is not going at all to a real legal problem where the government of New York has denied permission for the building of a church at the Ground Zero site.

A Greek Orthodox Church, called St. Nickolas, was crushed by the falling of the towers. It was an established church at ground Zero, with hundreds of years of history, that has been denied permission to rebuild. That's right, an established church that has applied for and not been given permits to rebuild, yet the Mosque had no problems.

This is a function of political correctness not only running amok, but being very selective in doing so.
This may be the lamest post you have ever made, Karl.

First of all, 51 Park is not a "mosque", although it commonly called that by those who want to crank up the ambient noise. Mosques don't have culinary schools and basketball courts. As far as I can tell, the facility is everything westerners could possibly hope for from Islam. Yet, those people, mostly American citizens, are being treated as pariahs for political reasons. It's shameful and disgusting.

Then, let me trash your claim that St. Nicholas has "hundreds of years of history". A lie, Karl? Or, just a failure to do any investigation. Where DO you (and Darth) get this stuff? St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church was first founded in 1916, and services started in that building (which was not originally built as a church) in 1922. So it has some history, but it was not historic, by any definition.

Karl, you allegedly served on Wilmington, MA Zoning Board of Appeals. Unless Wilmington is in some zoning backwater, you know full well that there are a myriad of reasons why a building permit legitimately might not be issued, even to rebuild the same facility in the same location.

Please tell us, Karl, that you have investigated this situation and know the precise situation, and that you're not just venting conservative plasma out your aft port

Tell us about the 2008 agreement between the Port Authority and St. Nicholas. Tell us who ratcheted up their demands so that this agreement later fell apart. Tell us where the replacement church was to be built, and who owns that land where the permit was denied.

When you have done some investigation work (which you clearly have not done to date), come back here and admit that you were wrong to make such a baseless allegation.
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Old 08-18-2010, 06:02 AM   #15
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Karl, each situation (locations, domains, parties involved, negotiations, etc.) are vastly different. To be accurate, the complex proceedings cannot be simply characterized as "denial of permission to rebuild" :

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/ny.../19church.html

The tiny St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church is once again at the forefront of the myriad disputes that plague the rebuilding effort at ground zero.

The fate of the church, a narrow whitewashed building that was crushed in the attack on the World Trade Center, was supposed to have been settled eight months ago, with a tentative agreement in which the church would swap its land for a grander church building on a larger parcel nearby, with a $20 million subsidy from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. This would have allowed work to begin at the south end of the site.

But the two sides never came to final terms. After months of negotiations, the Port Authority, which is overseeing reconstruction at ground zero, ended its talks with the church on Monday, saying that the church had sought increasingly costly concessions.

Complaints, of course, abound on both sides.

The authority now says that St. Nicholas is free to rebuild the church on its own parcel at 155 Cedar Street, just east of West Street. The authority will, in turn, use eminent domain to get control of the land beneath that parcel so it can move ahead with building foundation walls and a bomb-screening center for trucks, buses and cars entering the area.

“We made an extraordinarily generous offer to resolve this issue and spent eight months trying to finalize that offer, and the church wanted even more on top of that,” said Stephen Sigmund, a spokesman for the Port Authority. “They have now given us no choice but to move on to ensure the site is not delayed. The church continues to have the right to rebuild at their original site, and we will pay fair market value for the underground space beneath that building.”

Last July, the Port Authority and the Greek Orthodox Church announced a tentative plan to rebuild the church just east of its original site, at Liberty and Greenwich Streets. The authority agreed to provide the church with land for a 24,000-square-foot house of worship, far larger than the original, and $20 million. Since the church would be built in a park over the bomb-screening center, the authority also agreed to pay up to $40 million for a blast-proof platform and foundation.

In recent negotiations, the authority cut the size of the church slightly and told church officials that its dome could not rise higher than the trade center memorial. The church, in turn, wanted the right to review plans for both the garage with the bomb-screening center and the park, something the authority was unwilling to provide. More important, authority officials said, the church wanted the $20 million up front, rather than in stages. Officials said they feared that the church, which has raised about $2 million for its new building, would come back to the authority for more.

The termination of negotiations is a major setback for the little church, a parish of 70 families that is nearly 90 years old. St. Nicholas officials had hoped to build an impressive structure, with a traditional Greek Orthodox dome, and a nondenominational center for visitors to ground zero. That will not be possible on the church’s original 1,200-square-foot lot, although church officials say they hope for reconciliation.

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Old 08-18-2010, 11:39 AM   #16
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Thanks, Pete.

I had that information too, although Mr. Thinks Some, Posts More clearly did not. I was hoping that he would actually have to do some work to find that his allegations were wrong.

Instead of an admission, I expect that we'll get some "I have the right to create my own reality" song and dance. If so, I'm ready. Go ahead. Make my day.

Whether Karl admits to the error of his ways or not, the reality of this situation is in your post. The last paragraph is particularly telling. This little parish saw an opportunity and got big dollar signs in their eyes.

Perhaps not surprisingly, the Orthodox priest and Archdiocese are using the current situation as political leverage to try to get better concessions than the generous ones they were already offered.
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Old 08-18-2010, 05:58 PM   #17
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I was there on 9-11.
I worked down there til Jan on recovery.
I lost over 50 dear friends and co-workers.
I now have a 30% Lung function loss and other medical issue due to the attack.
I do not think that a mosque belongs a block away from the World Trade Center siite.
Building a mosque at that site is disrespectful of all of the people who died there that day.

This is still the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.

See how you would feel if someone you love died there.

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It is a political football.

Obama has spoken often about zoning issues in cities and towns where he does not live.

Many feel it is an insult to the memory of those murdered on 9-11 by Muslims (We can call them whatever we like, but they called themselves Muslim Fundamentalists) to build a mosque in the shadow of that site.

There are legal things, and there are things that are just not right, and they often are not related.
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Old 08-18-2010, 06:54 PM   #18
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I was there on 9-11.
I worked down there til Jan on recovery.
I lost over 50 dear friends and co-workers.
I now have a 30% Lung function loss and other medical issue due to the attack.
I do not think that a mosque belongs a block away from the World Trade Center siite.
Building a mosque at that site is disrespectful of all of the people who died there that day.

This is still the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.

See how you would feel if someone you love died there.
I have the greatest respect for those that gave everything, and those like you who are still suffering.

You are absolutely entitled to your personal perspective. I have no doubts that it is strong and genuine, and I have empathy for your feelings. My issue is not with the personal feelings of individuals such as yourself. I understand how you would welcome support for your position, but I hope you feel as strongly as I do about the shameless jackals who are taking advantage of the situation to further themselves politically.

However, I believe that your negative feelings towards the entirety of the Muslim faith are misplaced. Bin Laden and Al Qaeda brought the towers down, not the people who want to build the Community Center. If someone was suggesting a facility dedicated to the memory of the attackers, I would share your feelings 100%, but that is most definitely not the case. Instead, Bin Laden has to consider Park 51 a slap to HIS face, rejecting his fundamentalism and demonstrating that Islam can not only coexist with western civilization, but can be an integrated part of of it.

This situation has some similarities to the internment of Japanese-Americans at the start of WWII. People were outraged about Pearl Harbor. Completely innocent Japanese-Americans were subsequently made victims of the same event when they were stripped of their possessions and jailed. History reveals that the internment was one of the darker events in American history. Perhaps the that situation, over 60 years ago, will lend some historical perspective to the situation today. This IS still the land of the free and the home of the brave, and it is our dedication to the founding principles, even when it is most difficult, that make it so.

I know there is a lot of pressure on the Community Center to find a different location. Perhaps that will happen. If it does not, and the facility is built as planned, I hope that the healing begins soon. I wish you and your comrades well.
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Old 08-18-2010, 11:07 PM   #19
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Just last evening KSagal made an allegation that it is "political correctness not only running amok, but being very selective in doing so", that the Park51 facility was given a building permit, while the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church was not.

I challenged KSagal to present the facts that would make his case. PeteInLongBeach was kind enough to post a NY Times article with some very enlightening information.

Curious, then that KSagal made multiple posts tonight, yet was somehow unable to get around to this thread.
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Old 08-19-2010, 09:50 PM   #20
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Just last evening KSagal made an allegation that it is "political correctness not only running amok, but being very selective in doing so", that the Park51 facility was given a building permit, while the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church was not.

I challenged KSagal to present the facts that would make his case. PeteInLongBeach was kind enough to post a NY Times article with some very enlightening information.

Curious, then that KSagal made multiple posts tonight, yet was somehow unable to get around to this thread.
Perhaps your ranting is response enough. I find it laughable that you complain about how I did not answer your biased question. You rarely ever answer any questions I pose to you.

Ask anything of value, and I might consider a response. I'm waiting.
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